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Thread: Brakes: General upgrade information

  1. #1

    Brakes: General upgrade information

    Hello people - here's a white paper from a chap called Chris Wilson. He's a chap on the Supra forums (with a wealth of MR2 knowledge) who I respect hugely.

    Thought this would be of use to you all trying to improve your brakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Wilson
    Brake upgrades can set out to try to achieve several objectives.

    The commonest are to increase resistance to fade and or increase braking effort for a given pedal effort. IE, the pads are pushed against the discs harder for a given pedal effort than before the upgrade, or the brakes will stop the car from 100 MPH, hard, for more times before fade sets in, than previously. The feel from the pedal, that almost intangible quality, can also be addressed and sometimes improved upon by brake size, or pad material changes, or brake flexi hose upgrades to something less squashy than rubber.

    It's easy to get carried away by the thought of brake upgrades. The limitation in most cars as to how short a distance they can stop in is tyre friction. Leaving aside pedal feedback, and fade, it is almost certain that a Supra on stock Jap spec brakes will stop in just as short a distance as one with an AP six pot kit on it, a Brembo kit, an AP Racing kit, or whatever. It may not feel to the driver that it does, but usually such is the case if you just nail the pedal as hard as you can. The fancy kits may *FEEL* to stop the car faster, due to less pedal effort, and a better bite, but in reality, if you hit the pedal as hard as you can with stock Jap spec brakes, UK spec brakes, AP kit, KAD, whatever, the car will stop in the same distance. Repeat this test 10 times and stock Jap brakes may be on fire and long since faded, or the fluid boiled, UK ones may be very hot and bothered, but the upgraded ones will probably still be working within pad, disc and brake fluid temp limits. Add in the intangible "feel" factor, and a desire to brake as hard as possible, using as little skill as possible, but WITHOUT relying on the ABS to take over, and for sure a well set up brake upgrade may well allow more finesse.

    Herein though lies the rub.

    Upgrade only the fronts and the brake balance of the stock car may well be compromised. Let's take stock brakes. You press smoothly on the brake pedal with (say) 50 pounds force. The car stops fine. 70 pounds, the fronts are just beginning to lock (car makers ALWAYS aim for the fronts to lock first, as rear wheel lock makes the car very unstable and liable to swap ends). The rears are doing as much work as the brake engineers deemed safe to prevent premature rear lock up. The ABS cuts in, and maximum retardation has been reached. Now, take a car with big front discs and calipers. Only 40 pounds pressure now gives a smooth, lock free and powerful retardation. 50 pounds and the new, more powerful, (for the same pedal pressure), fronts are locking. The ABS cuts in. BUT, and this is the crux, those original rear
    calipers and discs are still well below the caliper pressure where they are able to achieve maximum retardation without fear of the rears locking.

    In other words the FRONT brakes are doing TOO MUCH work, albeit without breaking into a sweat, and the rears are, to exaggerate a bit, just along for the ride. The BEST scenario is to upgrade front AND rear brakes, carefully ensuring the original balance of effort at any given brake pedal pressure remains as designed, but that the more efficient front AND rear brakes stay cooler for more hard stops, and that old intangible "feel" from the brake pedal is improved, at lower rates of driver effort on the pedal. The latter may or may not be good or desirable, and can be engineered out by changing BOTH front and rear caliper piston sizes, or pad areas. In a race car the balance would be adjustable via 2 brake master cylinders, with a driver selectable change in mechanical leverage effort between front and rear brake circuits, one cylinder operating the front brake calipers, the other the rear. This can also be achieved on road cars, but to do so is usually complex and expensive, especially if ABS and brake circuit failure safeguards are to be maintained. It is far easier to calculate the caliper and disc sizes, along with pad area and compound to achieve this, as near as available off the shelf equipment will allow.


    Caveat. I said before makers engineer more effort on the front brakes to encourage straight line stopping if the tyres are locked up . They err on the excessive side, as, in the wet, the rear tyres can take a lot more braking effort than in the dry, due to less weight transfer onto the front tyres, as they will lock before as much weight is transferred when the grip of the road surface is reduced. So adding yet more front brake effort worsens this existing imbalance, especially in the wet. If it were not for the ABS the front wheels would be locking up very early.

    On cars with basic (1 or 2 channel) ABS, or no ABS at all, a brake upgrade on just one end of the car can be lethal.

  2. #2
    Mine has upgraded rears and it know stops where as before with no rear brakes it didn't so is it less lethal to have no brakes than uprated ones?.

    Will be putting the st205s on the front soon anyway as the joke brakes that Toyota fitted originaly are shite.

  3. #3
    Well, if the stock brakes can lock the tires, then you're governed by mechanical (tyre) grip.

    You'll be ok for the first stop - as Chris says in the article, it's repeated stopping where it wins out.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by snowtigger View Post
    Mine has upgraded rears and it know stops where as before with no rear brakes it didn't so is it less lethal to have no brakes than uprated ones?.

    Will be putting the st205s on the front soon anyway as the joke brakes that Toyota fitted originaly are shite.
    What car are you going to put the ST 205 brakes on?

    Bob

  5. #5
    Well the fronts are crap as standard retardation is okay for 1 or 2 stops but after that you may as well throw an anchor out the sunroof and pray to whatever god you like to stop.

    I can see his theory behind what he says all brakes stop you, but some are more resistant to change hmm so because you are transfering kinetic energy into heat by the means of friction, but if you have more surface area to grip the disk bigger pistons and more of them are you not multiplying the brakeing force over a wider surface area than standard pistons and disks and if front and back are both upgraded does that not mean they are more efficent at stoping and if you throw in wider Tires with more surface area ergo more contact patch And better rubber will that not effect the braking distance.
    Last edited by snowtigger; 27-08-2009 at 19:32. Reason: Just for bob mk1a mate

  6. #6
    This is exactly what i found when i out the ST165 fronts on my first mk1. The fronts locked whereas before they didn't. What i later found out was that i should have taken out or gutted the bias valve to increase the braking force to the rears.

    Now i have a WMS front conversion with the 22V caliper rears. The stopping power is phenominal.

    Pity i have going power problems........
    MK1.5 - fixed - turbo technics hybrid CT26, ST205 charge cooler, XS power manifold and decat (not split yet) air con to be sorted next

    Oh, and its now running thanks to Jiff and BSM

  7. #7
    Any id's on the mk2 setups? Im seeing a lot of setups where people use some sort of big brake upgrade on the front, lets say a D2 or WMS kit with 6 pots, and they use rev3 brakes on the rear with upgraded disks and pads. Did anyone ever test the brake balance on these kind of setups?

  8. #8
    I'm going to be using 911 Turbo (996) calipers up front on 325x30 discs.

    The rears will be stock calipers, spaced to use 325x30 also, so I've got more leverage on the rear as well. Hopefully!

  9. #9
    How are those disks on the back ever going to get any coverage from the stock calipers? Ive heard you before about that 996 setup, got any pics of it?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by n2obob View Post
    What car are you going to put the ST 205 brakes on?

    Bob
    It's going onto a mk1 mr2 bob.

    I see what this article is saying and i agree. If you are upgrading your brakes then it is the manner in which they work and the abilty for them to lose the heat gained in harsh braking that will be the biggest improvement.

    Snow, he is saying that if you upgrade (not just replace) the front or back. Then you want to upgrade the other side to the same degree. So your brakes may be 'better' - more resistant to fade, dissipate heat faster etc. But won't be unbalanced.

    We will probably find that particular upgrades to the front of mk1's (for example) will have 'matching' upgrades to the rear. I have 165's up front and the problem i find is that i can lock them very easily as the rears are not a good 'match', for example.

    Plus yes the main limiting factor to braking distances will be the amount of rubber in contact with the road.

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