Which engine should I choose?

[markiii]

Firstly I suppose I should say hi, I've been browsing silently for a while contemplating the darkside of putting a V6 into a MK3 for a while. I'm currently running a chargecooled Turbo setup on my 1zzfe setup (240ftlbs and 267bhp), so am used to the vagaries of ODBII and piggyback Vs standalone ECUs. I've done about 6 Turbo conversions on the 1ZZ and helped a friend swap in a 2ZZGE to his roadster ( A very easy swap I should add). Haven't a clue how to weld yet, though a very rusty MK1 that needs fixing this year will either result in me knowing what I'm doing or having written that off as better handed to someone who does. So that gives you an idea of my experience or lack thereof lol

Having a long chat with Mr Woods yesterday whilst dropping off a friends car for conversion (cheers Paul) I can see why the general consensus is that the 3vz is a better bet than the 1MZ




right the differences are...

1mz pros
lighter,slightly more powerful in stock form,usually lower mileage engines

1mz cons
OBD2 ECU,a bitch to wire up and keep happy,wasted spark dizzyless ignition so you cant fiddle with the timing,weak rods

3vz pros
OBD1 ECU,20 wires gets it running with everything working,dizzy lets you adjust timing,very strong con rods/crank,much lower CR than 1mz (9.6:1) so takes boost better,cheap supply of donors (yeah right! :) )

3vz cons
heavier than 1mz,tend to be higher mileage.

however that said there a few things I've not seen definative answers on, so hopefully you guys can assist.

If I do the swap (it's a year a way so time to do some more research) my aim is for an N/A engine that will rev to the stars and equal the power of my current 1zzFe Turbo but without the lag and and with that lovey sound. The V6 is never likely to see boost of any kind (yeah I know everyone says that :liar: )

so taking aside the obvious costs difference of sourcing a 1MZ and potentialy putting a standalone ECU on it, forgetting the costs of headwork or internals. (this will have a bearing but not yet) is this possible?

1. 3Vz has stronger rods will they fit a 1MZ?
2. Anyone increased the compression ratio on a 3VZ? if so were the results good?
3. Presumeably a standalone ECU on a 1MZ means no ODBII worries?
4. Anyone have a definative list of what UK and JSpec vehicles the 1MZ was available in? my research so far is a little contradictory
5. Anyone have a definative weight of each engine for comparison, I know there is about 20Kgs in it, but just how much weight are we actually talking about.
6.Wikipedia specs for standard 3VZ are 185bhp 189 ft-lb and for the 1MZ 230bhp 242 ft-lbs, is this accurate?
7. Is it acheivable to see a 3VZ equal those 1MZ numbers whilst staying N/A?
8. Whats the MAX N/A power that you guys have seen from both the 1MZ and 3VZ?
9. Has anyone actually run ITBs on either engine yet? if so how were teh results?
10. I was reading about sump issues due to the angle the engine fits at, I'm running a Moroso baffled pan on my 1ZZFE has anyone found an off the shelf (Yeah I know thats heresy on TB lol ) solution or is this custom all the way?
11. Do these engine like to Rev or is it all torque?

thanks in advance guys I'm sure there will be more questions later and hopefully I haven't missed any already posted obvious answers

Mark

[msherry21]

Hi!!! Welcome to TB!!! :welcome:

[biteme]

Hi!!! Welcome to TB!!! :welcome:

[biteme]

1. 3Vz has stronger rods will they fit a 1MZ?
They won't, AFAIK - there's a 1mm difference.

2. Anyone increased the compression ratio on a 3VZ? if so were the results good?
There's a facility to use aftermarket pistons which could raise it to a potential 13:1 (or lower...).

3. Presumeably a standalone ECU on a 1MZ means no ODBII worries?
Correctamundo. Hydra Nemesis is a good bet, as there's a plug and play set up for that.

4. Anyone have a definative list of what UK and JSpec vehicles the 1MZ was available in? my research so far is a little contradictory
3VZ- Lexus ES300, Camry V6 <94
1MZ- Lexus RX300, Camry V6 >94 IIRC

5. Anyone have a definative weight of each engine for comparison, I know there is about 20Kgs in it, but just how much weight are we actually talking about.
The 3VZ-FE is the same weight as a 3SGTE - ish. If that helps.

6.Wikipedia specs for standard 3VZ are 185bhp 189 ft-lb and for the 1MZ 230bhp 242 ft-lbs, is this accurate?
The 3VZ-FE is accurate, I think the 1MZ is a little optimistic, more like 210bhp.

7. Is it acheivable to see a 3VZ equal those 1MZ numbers whilst staying N/A?
Very much so. Porting the heads and getting a good exhaust manifold mate to eliminate the horrible Y pipe should be able to see 240bhp on the stock ECU. Lean it out a little with a good map for more power too. Cams are available to enhance this, along with valves and valve springs.

8. Whats the MAX N/A power that you guys have seen from both the 1MZ and 3VZ?
Not sure on teh 1MZ, but 375bhp N/A has been seen for the 3VZ-FE but that was a marine application. I'd say that 275bhp would be achieveable from both though, with the right options and money.

9. Has anyone actually run ITBs on either engine yet? if so how were teh results?
They may have done, but it's certainly not something I'm aware of, there's been a lot of talk about it. Jenvey do some nice ITB's but no kits for the V6.

10. I was reading about sump issues due to the angle the engine fits at, I'm running a Moroso baffled pan on my 1ZZFE has anyone found an off the shelf (Yeah I know thats heresy on TB lol ) solution or is this custom all the way?
Speak to FourVeeSix on here about that :)

11. Do these engine like to Rev or is it all torque?
A lit bit of both. There's bags of torque from the low-end. Especially on the 3VZ.

Hope this helps

[OlberJ]

Methinks Tony said the safe max RPM was just under 8,500rpm so i wouldn't want to aim past that.

The 3VZ and 1MZ are still very much in there infancy but lots of projects going on. Limeymk1 is putting ITB's on his 1MZ if you want to speak to him about that.

Welcome to TB. Inore the idiots or join them. :mrgreen:

[Zip]

Methinks Tony said the safe max RPM was just under 8,500rpm so i wouldn't want to aim past that.




Say you got forged internals would there be much of a chance of getting 9,000rpm?

You know, So you can use the mk1s entire Rev gauge range lol

[biteme]

If you went shimless bucket conversion, more extreme cams, valves and valve spring upgrades, there's no reason why not.

WeasyS2S from here is in the middle of another 5VZ-FE build which should see 10,000rpm, so he might be you best source of information :)

[OlberJ]

Exsqueeze me. 10K revs :eek2:

Fuck a duck. The noise!

[Zip]

If you went shimless bucket conversion, more extreme cams, valves and valve spring upgrades, there's no reason why not.

WeasyS2S from here is in the middle of another 5VZ-FE build which should see 10,000rpm, so he might be you best source of information :)


What would it do to power delivery?

Would it completely fuck it up? Or could you make it so you still have some mid range and low down power aswell?

[Zip]

Exsqueeze me. 10K revs :eek2:

Fuck a duck. The noise!


Who needs Vtec:twisted:

[markiii]

thanks for the welcome and the info guys :-)

is he documenting that 10K build?

[loadswine]

Hello mate, good to see you on here. I'm intrigued to see which way you're going to go.:cool:

[Paul Woods]

welcome aboard mark,great to meet you yesterday! johnny just about covered all the questions there...power output of the 1mz is 205bhp,the power outputs for the 3vz all seem to be US figures,ive yet to see a site confirm UK camry output but mine was bone stock and showed 185bhp so i suppose thats accurate although some have shown up to 230bhp (fizzys) although we dont know how accurate that is.

[markiii]

likewise, thanks for taking so much time to chat Paul.

Guys, I've downloaded teh 1MZ manual linked to in teh sticky, does anyone know where I can find the 3VZ equivelant?

cheers

[markiii]

Guys,

done a lot more reading including the 1MZ manual cover to cover lol The wife has now officially given up all hope:naughty:

however the more I read the more questions I get so hopefully you can assist with a few more possibly obvious questions

1. Still looking for the 3VZ manual anyone know where I can find it?
2. EGR I see the 1MZ had it, not sure about the 3VZ, whats the consensus are people blocking it off? or plumbing it in?
3. 1MZ PCV, EVAP e,t,c I assume that these can just be left disconnected (assuming MOT time isn't an issue) as with my existing 1ZZFE
4. Anyone know the height of both engines so I can see if either proves a problem.
5. Reading the 1MZ manual it's for the early non VVTI head version. Anyone know if the VVTI and non VVTI heads are interchangeable?
6. There are 3 versions of 1MZ to my knowledge non VVTI, VVTI, and I seem to recall dual VVTI? anyone have a definative answer as to which cars they were fitted to?
7. Is there only one version of the 3VZ? or were there multiple revisions.

thanks for bearing with me been a while since I considered myself a noob.

[Marksman]

Sorry can only help with Q2. ERG, 3VZ also has it, throw it way! Providing you don't live in California and have tight emission laws. Two blanking plates are required and a couple of hoses are swapped around, hey presto no force feeding your engine dirty sooty air :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Owen.

[markiii]

excellent, the easier this can be the better :-)

1 down 6 to go

[markiii]

PM heading your way cheers matey :-)

[wardie]

four v, any chance of hosting that manual online somewhere, or could we get it put up as a download on here?

[wardie]

maybe admins could make this a permanant download.. sure lots of people would be interested..

[markiii]

Thanks Guys

1MZ manual refers to it as a DOHC unit

3VZ (and it's cam covers) refer to it as a Quad Cam

is that correct, did the 1MZ go backwards? or is there a quad Cam 1MZ I haven't come across yet?

thanks

[wardie]

in a way both are true.. the 3vz fre could be called a quad cam.. there are four cams.. but also its a dohc, cos over the top of each bank, there are two cams.. been looking through the 3vz fe manual and it uses both referances

[markiii]

funny enough I was just going to ask that

looks like thats teh case then cheers:thumbsup:

[hfmt93]

Not sure on teh 1MZ, but 375bhp N/A has been seen for the 3VZ-FE but that was a marine application.

Do you remember where you saw this? I would love to take a look at it.

[markiii]

right then it looks like I've talked myself into a 1MZFE with all the fun that entails

so as expected a couple more questions I hope you guys can answer.

1. We know the 3VZ can cope with absurdly high mileages, is this also the case with a 1MZ? would you buy one with 100000 miles or higher?

2. Those who have used the 1MZ have you gone for the non VVTI? VVTi? or dual VVTI? any issues with either in particular?

3. MOT emmisions, if the emissions test were based on the engine, is there a particular vehicle emmissions it would have to pass? presumeably the donor vehicle?

4. If newer than the car would I have to pass the emmisions for car or engine? Since the car is a 4 cylinder ULEV with 3 cats, this could prove difficult.

thanks again

Mark.

[OlberJ]

Think we only got one 1MZFE on here, and that's Phil (MRV6)'s mk2.

[lodgeman]

cough! dont forget limeys vvti tb monster mk1!:boogie:

[OlberJ]

Sorry, i meant to say running 1MZ. Appologies Limey.

Hmmm, ones Supercharged and the others got ITB's. Aye, go for it Markiii but you'll need to Turbo it :mrgreen:

[Whore of Babylon]

Anyone got details on the 1MZFE with ITB's? Im intrested in that concept.

[OlberJ]

Limey mk1's build in the 1.6 build section.