View Full Version : First boost of a drive...
Sponge Bob
07-08-2007, 10:15
The first three or four boosts, as many will know, are faaaar more juicier than normal driving conditions... how do I keep that power??
Is it just a case of bigger intercooler and as much air to it as possible? Or are there other tricks?
Does a cooler engine bay in general help, as although the IC isn't there, the pipes are?
Does a chargecooler keep the temps down permenantly (or at least for a much longer space of time?) I've heard people say they're only good for the drag strip and not so much for road use?
Suggestions, knowledge and general advice appreciated!!
For a mid engined layout, a chargecooler can give better cooling, as you can stick a large rad for it in the nose whereas the size of an intercooler is constrained by the space available in the engine bay, and may not get the best airflow anyway. As the 'thermal mass' of a chargecooler is greater too, it'll take longer to warm up under boost.
Also remember that when off boost a chargecooler effectively has two rads - the one at the front, plus the chargecooler core itself which is cooled by the air entering the engine which when off boost is pretty close to ambient temp, so off boost the chargecooler cools down quite quickly.
Subaru Legacy chargecooler in my MK1 SC track car
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6328/dscf5903se0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Jiff Lemon
07-08-2007, 10:23
Chargecoolers keep the intake temps at a constant, so as such aren't really affected by warm days and the like.
You able to check inlet temps? Or intercooler temps?
Got some good ducting going to and from the intercooler?
You able to check inlet temps? Or intercooler temps?
Mark Nias ( Shish on IMOC ) is about to start production of a 3 channel temp logger designed to monitor intercooler temps - the readings from 3 x K-type thermocouples can be logged to flash memory then uploaded to a PC for examination. I had a go with the prototype on my Mk1 SC on a recent trackday - inlet temp to the intercooler hit over 170 C ( fensport big pulley ), but was cooled down to around 100 C before entering the engine.
He's just taken delivery of the first run of PCBs, so they should be available for sale soon.
Sponge Bob
07-08-2007, 10:38
Hmm - some temp measuring would be a good idea... then I can gauge things properly...
I'm not convinced by a chargecooler for some reason... does the tank have to be in the engine bay? I don't know if i've got the room!!!
I had the ST205CC on my car, and it made the WORLD of difference.
Get a good front pre-rad for the core. A good pump, and you're laughing.
I did 10 laps of Donnington in mine, stopped, put my hand on the CC and it was COOL! The faster you go, teh cooler it gets.
CC rocks.
Sponge Bob
07-08-2007, 11:01
Ok... suddenly i'm leaning towards chargecooler!!
Does it replace the intercooler i've got completely, or do I just add the CC in with it?
It's about 150-200 for a setup isn't it... that gets a pump, rad and tank? Is that right? and would that be a good set of gear?
... does the tank have to be in the engine bay?
The chargecooler core has to be, but if you get a pressurised system ( like the Subaru one in mine ) you don't need a header tank/swirl pot.
Sponge Bob
07-08-2007, 11:10
Can I not put the core where my IC is (in the boot)... don't know what a header tank/swirl pot is, or the difference between a pressurised/non-press. system is!! Time for some research.
Also - can any kit do then, or do I need a particular type of CC to work with the 3S-GTE...
...and presumabley you have to somehow run more radiator pipes down to the front, is this lots of work?
Yep - core can go in the boot - but remember for a given heat transfer capacity a chargecooler core is a lot smaller than an interwarmer so there may be room in the engine bay. That would make for shorter air piping and reduced lag.
Piping to the front - I just used 13mm rubber heater hose which matched the fittings on my rad, but needed adapting for the 16mm fittings on the pump and core. Just ran the pipes along the underside next to the fuel tank.
Header/swirl tank - most chargecooler systems are unpressurised, and rely on a header tank to control fluid level. Mine is pressurised, the same as the MR2 engine cooling system - even has an identical rad cap with a 0.9 bar pressure rating. There is a small overflow tank fitted to the underside of the core too, but I could have piped it to the engine coolant header instead.
Looking at the problem from another angle, Water/Methanol injection can keep charge temps down too. Paul is going to try fitting an Aquamist system to my 1.5 so time will tell how effective it is on the 1.5 with boot mount IC. It was fitted to my tuned SC and it made a big difference. If I kept the system off on a spirited drive, the heatsoak raised it's ugly head within minutes but with the W/I turned on the onset of heatsoke was way slower and never reached anywhere near previous levels. Worth a look IMHO.
Jiff Lemon
07-08-2007, 11:28
Bob, take a look at the celica charger coolers - there's plenty of pics about.
With my limited (v6 for the win!) knowledge, I think the st165/185 coolers fit the rev1/2 and the ST205 fits the rev 3. The ST205 is meant to be the daddy of coolers and can be modded to fit the rev1/2 - Search for Murfs thread for inspiration.
That will work Shugs - but you're dependant on there always being water in there.
With the CC, on a Rev1 - get an ST185 CC core, it'll fit straight on and have virtually zero lag. Good sized high pressure hoses and a good size pre-rad (air con rad is ideal) and then wehey. You're into much lower intake temps. No swirl pot needed either.
The CC core is also much more efficient than the Interwarmer. it'll happily allow you hit full boost in 1st. You can then run 15-16psi all day on a CC'd CT26 :)
Oh whilst I'm up here, could you get some pies for the lads in work? I'll pay you for them :)
That will work Shugs - but you're dependant on there always being water in there.
Aye, it's the main drawback Johnny. Having said that, it very rarely ran out when in the midst of kicking the arse out of the SC but I got into the habbit of topping up with a pre-mix before heading off to the twisties for a blast. I'll see how it goes fitted to the 1.5.
Sponge Bob
07-08-2007, 12:00
Hmm - some excellent info chaps... I think it's going to have to be chargecooler then - and you say the lag is reduced as well..!! Bonus!!!! Still need to research this swirl pot business, but it will all become clear soon...
Looking at the problem from another angle, Water/Methanol injection can keep charge temps down too. Paul is going to try fitting an Aquamist system to my 1.5 so time will tell how effective it is on the 1.5 with boot mount IC. It was fitted to my tuned SC and it made a big difference. If I kept the system off on a spirited drive, the heatsoak raised it's ugly head within minutes but with the W/I turned on the onset of heatsoke was way slower and never reached anywhere near previous levels. Worth a look IMHO.
Hi Shugs, this was highly recommended to me at the weekend when I had my rolling road session...
Have you got any more info on the aquamist system.. prices, fitting guide etc? Are they easy to maintain... ie how often do you top it up etc?
Why not do both?
Believe it or not, I had both in the Rev 3 Tubby @ 1.5bar. Never exactly hung around :)
Water injection, if properly designed, has three beneficial effects on power. Firstly it cools the charge air, giving a denser charge and hence more power. The second effect is that the heat of combustion turns the water into steam - this phase change gives a much greater expansion in volume than the normal heating of the charge air, so you get more power. Finally the phase change from water to steam absorbs a lot of the heat energy, so reduces the temps within the combustion chamber, thus reducing the likelihood of the enging knocking, so you can run a bit more advance on the ignition timing.
:thumbsup:
Sponge Bob
07-08-2007, 13:59
Yeah... if only I had that money tree i'd do both!! lol But you certainly make a good case for the water injection...
1.5 bar - that's insane mate...! What turbo did you use... presumably not any of the CTs...?
All these problems running boost. Is it the same on a mk2 Turbo?
It's exactly the same mate. I had a stage 2 hybrid CT20b. I was going to go all out on it, but I'd have just been "another turbo" owner, so I decided to go a completely different way on the V6 - as you know!
Yes, the Mk2 Turbo is the same, it's a charcteristic of the MR layout. Nothing you can really do about it - Chargecool plus mapped water injection is worth so much - not just in terms of boost, but also in terms of ignition advance. Add a bit of methanol in there to
1) add more octane to your fuel
2) help clean the inside of the engine.
Keep on top of the water levels and you're in a win win situation
rattymr2
07-08-2007, 16:48
i am looking at a chargecooler for my 1.5 and i already have an aircon rad upfront and pipework to the rear. what else is needed and does anyone know who can fit it for me.
suppose i will lose the possibility of have ac on the car but i have lived without it so far.
i am looking at a chargecooler for my 1.5 and i already have an aircon rad upfront and pipework to the rear. what else is needed and does anyone know who can fit it for me.
suppose i will lose the possibility of have ac on the car but i have lived without it so far.
3S Service centre in Hook, Hants were more than up for giving it a go on my 1.5, in fact I think they had all the gubbins excluding the pre rad to sell...
Give James a call 07881942241, say I gave you his number (Ollie with the 1.5 should job his memory)
Martin, check this out:
http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=74862
I'm still trying to find the details of the REV 3 coversion kit as well.. I've seen it somewhere!!
Oh yeah, one more thing, James was wondering about the turbo blanket.. are you sourcing one to send to him??
rattymr2
07-08-2007, 17:16
ordered the blanket today so it'll be with him for the weekend.
you're only interested in the cc set up cos it uses a Fiat radiatorlol
Martin, check this out:
http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=74862
I'm still trying to find the details of the REV 3 coversion kit as well.. I've seen it somewhere!!
Oh yeah, one more thing, James was wondering about the turbo blanket.. are you sourcing one to send to him??
I think Thor do that mate. But, basically the bits you need are
MAP sensor
MAT
Ignitor
Injectors
ECU
CT20b
I think that's it. Speak to Mrs Woods about it :)
Hi Shugs, this was highly recommended to me at the weekend when I had my rolling road session...
Have you got any more info on the aquamist system.. prices, fitting guide etc? Are they easy to maintain... ie how often do you top it up etc?
Ollie, The system was on the SC when I bought it and it has no docs. It's at Paul's just now so can run out and look either, sorry. There are different models available and I know mine isn't nearly top of the range.
There's a fitting guide on the Aquamist site http://www.aquamist.co.uk It's not just Aquamist that do W/I so could be worth a shop around, that's what I'll be doing if the one I have can't be transfered to the 3SGTE.
Mine was setup to come on at ~10 psi so it was working when most of the heat was being generated due to the ~15 psi pully. This meant that if I didn't gun it everywhere the water lasted about 3-4 @ ~50 m/day IIRC. It had a 5 litre tank .
robwsurf
08-08-2007, 21:45
On the gt4 charge coolers theres actually 2 different st205 cores the normal one and the wrc spec one which apparently has more layers in it
msherry21
08-08-2007, 22:14
Sorry to quickly hijack, Is this something I could do on the V6sc? I know I can get WI for the turbo but what about my type of supercharger?
Thanks and sorry for jumping in.
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