I'm saving up for a V8... the 1UR-FSE, fingers crossed!

[keri-WMS]

4.6 Lexus V8 with VVT-i = 385bhp and 369ft-lb straight out the box!!! :jump: It's already making 310ft-lb at 2,000rpm!

I HAD decided to keep it "simple" with a 210bhp 2.0L 16v BEAMS engine running a blower at say 8psi which should wipe the floor with the 3SGTE in theory. A lot of people have said that a stock BEAMS can make 230BHP with an aftermarket ECU (ie "sod the emissions"! :twisted: ) as Toyota really strangled it to pass modern legislation but this is not confirmed! Assuming it's true and I can run Megasquirt/spark:

230bhp/14.5psi(1 bar of atmos) = 15.862bhp per psi absolute.
15.862bhp/psi x (14.5psi-atmos + 8psi-boost) = 357bhp
357bhp minus maybe 30bhp to drive the supercharger = 327bhp with no lag!

The trouble is that running the same figures based on the new V8's 385bhp looks like:

385bhp/14.5psi(1 bar of atmos) = 26.55bhp per psi absolute.
26.55bhp/psi x (14.5psi-atmos + 8psi-boost) = 597.3bhp
597bhp minus maybe 50bhp to drive the supercharger = 547bhp with no lag!

Now I know this is theory and there's compression ratio/bottom end failure/drive shaft failure/lots of ££££££ between theory and reality, but 8psi is still low-ish boost so it's not that extreme from a relative point of view!

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVT-i - VVT-i as in the BEAMS engine etc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_ZZ_engine#2ZZ-GE VVTL-i 1.8, 180bhp, variable timing AND lift! Toyota had to abandon this due to emissions regs. :confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_UR_engine VVT-i V8

Specs / pics:
http://lexus.jp/models/ls/performance/engine/images/img-v8-01.gif
http://lexus.jp/models/gs/performance/images/img-powerunit-01.jpg
http://lexus.jp/models/ls/performance/engine/images/img-d-4s-01.jpg
http://lexus.jp/models/ls/performance/engine/images/img_vvt-ie_01.jpg
http://lexus.jp/models/ls/performance/at/images/img-trans-01.jpg

Another point for the RWD front engined rebels (like my Mk1 Escort "project"), the 1UR-FSE comes with an 8-speed "automatic" (brained?) gearbox! DIY 8-speed paddle shift methinks?!!! :driving:

Last point: Lexus are going to release a 5.0L version for the new sports car.... :hidesbehi

[Paff]

thats is pure porn mate :)

nicely impressed here, should be fun

[keri-WMS]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine#2GR-FE - the V6 VVT-i version, the 2GR-FSE is 3.5L, 315bhp, 277ft-lb.

The 2008 Supra might have a "tuned" 350bhp version apparently...

All VERY close to the V8 in terms of output....? :icon_eek:

[Shugsta]

Keri, is this planned for the 1a? The mind boggles! :freak3:

dimensons? :hmm:
gearbox? :hmm:
weight? :hmm:
cost? :hmm:
driver life expectancy? :evil:

The plot thickens :popcorn:

[Paul Woods]

amazing engine! you are aware it doesnt actually fit though lol

[Goldy]

Maaaan..... JUST DO IT :)

[keri-WMS]

amazing engine! you are aware it doesnt actually fit though lol

Ahhhh fek, that was the bit I couldn't confirm! So what's the difference? Is it bigger than the earlier V8 or is it that there's no way to fit it to a transverse box? Who managed to get their mitts on one to try?

What about the V6? It's still better than the early V8's...


Keri, is this planned for the 1a? The mind boggles!

dimensons?
gearbox?
weight?
cost?
driver life expectancy?


1a? = Yes (or it was), or failing that my Mk1 Escort!
dimensons? = No idea
gearbox? = No idea
weight? = No idea
cost? = I HATE to think. Many many thousands, or wait years for it to get cheaper...
driver life expectancy? = Less than average...?

[biteme]

You can't pollute a fine Japanese V8 with a Ford badge!! Although with something as ground breaking as this, Fix Often Repair Daily could be apt lol

[keri-WMS]

You can't pollute a fine Japanese V8 with a Ford badge!! Although with something as ground breaking as this, Fix Often Repair Daily could be apt lol

I agree that they never work and rot away every year, BUT when they do work they are soooo much fun!

My 1300 8v 4-door Escort is MUCH faster down country lanes etc than my AW11, it's lighter, holds a drift much easier and turns in much harder (ie it's more responsive). I know a lot of that is down to the engine position and the soft AW11 suspension, but all the same. On the other hand it's been in the garage getting a resto for about 80% of the time I've owned it! :shrug:

Anyway, I thought these was some milage in the AW11 being part-British at heart? The two theories are that it's based on a Lotus prototype (hence the wedge shape) that was designed by the same guy who did the TVR Tasmin (wedge shape), Lotus Esprit (wedge shaped), Triumph TR7 (wedge shaped) any another Lotus, the Eclat I think. Also Lotus design engineers did apparently go over there on contract to "help Toyota develop the suspension", and the 4AGE is very close to the design (in terms of the layout and spec of the internals) of the Ford / Cosworth BDA which funnily enough was fitted to the Mk1 Escort Twincam... :toms:

Esprit with MR2-like front:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2006/12/114.jpg

Earlier version Esprit:
http://www.trollhattansaab.net/images/shannons/Lotus%20Esprit.jpg

Lotus Eclat:
http://www.mindspring.com/~traff/frt1.jpg

TVR Tasmin:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2006/12/115.jpg

Triumph TR7/8:
http://www.victoriabritish.com/assets/cust_photos/tr8-80-mike-r-or.jpg

http://toyotasupra.free.fr/lotus.htm - Lotus Type 90
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2006/12/116.jpg


PS - I think that this thread might be off topic, especially if the V8 is a no-go! :thk:

[Sparky]

There is always the 2GR from the Aussie Aurion, not sure if it is a FE or FSE but Toyota have strapped a supercharger on it. :twisted:

[keri-WMS]

There is always the 2GR from the Aussie Aurion, not sure if it is a FE or FSE but Toyota have strapped a supercharger on it. :twisted:

Toyota superchargers (or more likely the intake systems) are terrible though as far as I can see...? The TRD devision use Eatons which are a bit better, but the basic Toyota roots jobs for instance (theory again) in the case of the 4AGE v 4AGZE:

129bhp/14.5psi(1 bar of atmos) = 8.897bhp per psi absolute.
8.897bhp/psi x (14.5psi-atmos + 8psi-boost) = 200.2bhp
200.2bhp minus maybe 25bhp to drive the 'ze supercharger = 175.2bhp in theory for the 4AGZE, but the reality is 145bhp (the 165bhp one runs 10psi).

I often wonder about buying an AW11 SC, binning all the intake stuff and supercharger and running it at 14psi (or whatever the standard ECU will take, I've read that the MAP sensor 'ze ECU has an ignition cut at 14.7psi....) with a big intercooler in the boot/engine lid and a nice rotary or screw blower.

That might work out like:
135bhp(6bhp added for nice exhaust etc)/14.5psi(1 bar of atmos) = 9.31bhp per psi absolute.
9.31bhp/psi x (14.5psi-atmos + 14psi-boost) = 265.3bhp
265.3bhp minus maybe 20bhp (?) to drive a better supercharger = 245.3bhp in theory , and other than forged pistons and possibly bigger injectors it's a cheap and easy way to get fast as it keeps the original car's box/ECU/loom/engine and you can sell the SC gubbins on ebay!

:hidesbehi

[Marksman]

Hiya Keri.

As far as I'm aware the SC on the 4AGZE takes about 40BHP to run it. You can easily run to 12-13 PSI with a larger pulley and have 175ish output. Any more and it heats up the charge so you get more pressure but less power. Tis a silly feeling to see a higher reading on the boost gauge but feel less oomph through the seat! Proper intercooling would help though rather than Toyota's half arsed afterthought :whistle:, or water injection etc.

If I hate the MK1.5 when it's done (I might after being used to the SC) then a 3S-GZE might be a plan...

Cheers,

Owen.

[keri-WMS]

Hiya Keri.

As far as I'm aware the SC on the 4AGZE takes about 40BHP to run it. You car easily run to 12-13 PSI with a larger pulley and have 175ish output. Any more and it heats up the charge so you get more pressure but less power. Tis a silly feeling to see a higher reading on the boost guage but feel less oomph through the seat! Proper intercooling would help though rather that Toyota's half arsed afterthought :whistle:, or water injection etc.

If I hate the MK1.5 when it's done (I might after being used to the SC) then a 3S-GZE might be a plan...

Cheers,

Owen.

...a sorted Mk1.5 3S-GZE BEAMS still gets my vote for fastest "race lap" I suspect!!! ;) Not too cheap though...?

Ok, just out of interest then (ie not proving anything in particular!!!):

145bhp + 40bhp = 185bhp output at the crank on a 4AGZE
185bhp/22.5psi(14.5 psi of atmos + 8psi of boost) = 8.22bhp per psi absolute in the 8psi spec 4AGZE.
8.22bhp/psi x 26.5(14.5psiAtmos + 12psiBoost) = 217.8bhp
217.8hp minus the 40bhp again to drive the 'ze supercharger = 177.8bhp in theory for the 4AGZE at 12psi of boost - pretty close to 175bhp-ish! :nerd:

My previous two examples (4AGE v 4AGZE) done again but with 40bhp drag on the Toyota 'gze blower:

129bhp/14.5psi(1 bar of atmos) = 8.897bhp per psi absolute for the 4AGE.
8.897bhp/psi x (14.5psi-atmos + 8psi-boost) = 200.2bhp
200.2bhp minus 40bhp to drive the 'ze supercharger = 160.2bhp in theory for the 8psi 4AGZE, the reality is 145bhp - so we're 15bhp down. This is the 'ze's intercooler and extra inlet stuff drag I suspect, not QUITE as bad as I thought...?

My theoretical SC with screw blower, bigger i/c and "nice" (fabricated or even just basic 4AGE?) inlet/plenum and 'ze MAP sensor/ECU running at 14psi of boost. This assumes I get the 4AGE's 9.31bhp/psi(@crank) due to the improved inlet and cooler charge rather than the 'ze's 8.22bhp/psi(@crank) as seen above.
135bhp(6bhp added for nice exhaust etc)/14.5psi(1 bar of atmos) = 9.31bhp per psi absolute.
9.31bhp/psi x (14.5psi-atmos + 14psi-boost) = 265.3bhp
265.3bhp minus maybe 30bhp (?) to drive a better supercharger = 235.3bhp in theory, and other than forged pistons and possibly bigger injectors it's a cheap and easy way to get fast as it keeps the original car's box/ECU/loom/engine and you can sell the SC gubbins on ebay!

Still looks like chopping the car about and reworking the 'ze with a better inlet and blower is well worth it? That 14.5psi isn't going to be as hot either due to the way both the rotary and screw compressors work.

I suppose the REALLY interesting question is what is the limit? I know people reckon on a properly silly 4AGTE (turbos) making 350bhp at huge boost (25psi plus, see http://forums.twobrutal.com/showthread.php?t=1648&highlight=4agte for a 331bhp @ 25psi reference) with all-steel bottom ends, aftermarket ECUs, etc. As even a screw blower is going to be drawing say...60bhp? (twice the boost, twice the load?) at these levels....that leaves maybe 290bhp and a very expensive and fragile engine.

It seems to me you could chop up and rework a 'ze AW11 to 235bhp lag free for £1k-1.5k plus car/engine and it would not be a monster of a job. Add another £5k and you can have that fragile 290-300bhp, but why bother when the 2.0 BEAMS will do that at a few psi (again in theory). The easy 2.0 SC option is a 3S-GZE as mentioned, my only problem with it is that it makes 240bhp@13psi (rev 2?) - which is 8.42bhp/psi, only a fraction better than the 4AGZE's 8.22bhp/psi (at the crank) even though it's a 2.0 not a 1.6! Take the 2.0 3SGTE's 8.42bhp/psi and devide it by 2(L), then multiply it by 1.6(L) to get a fair comparison and the 3SGTE would make 6.74bhp/psi if it was a 1.6!!!!

To look at it another way, the 2.0 beams makes 210bhp with it's 14.5psi of atmos+(0.0psi)boost which is 14.48bhp/psi - putting the 2.0 3SGTE's 8.42bhp/psi well and truly in it's place....!

This has kind of become the (anti V8 / V6 / 3S-GTE?) devil's advocate thread! :moon:

[podge]

This has kind of become the (anti V8 / V6 / 3S-GTE?) devil's advocate thread! :moon:
the thing is is what is possible to get out of all these engines
its like 4age spend a fortune and get 300 odd bhp
3sgte spend lots and get 800 bhp
v6 untested as yet but could give lots of power
1uzfe v8 spend lots and get 2500 bhp i wonder which one id choose;)

[biteme]

I think you could get 1000bhp from a V6 - not relaibly, but I think it could be done.

[keri-WMS]

3sgte spend lots and get 800 bhp
v6 untested as yet but could give lots of power
1uzfe v8 spend lots and get 2500 bhp i wonder which one id choose;)

I didn't know the 3SGTE had that much potential (excluding NOS etc)? Fensport's best one (?) is 650bhp which is a 2.1 all steeler with MoTeC ECU, water injection, huge turbo, 272 cams, big valves, flowed head.......and that "650bhp+" is on motorsport fuel, not pump fuel.

I read (forum a while ago) that the std V6 bottom end with forged pistons is ok for 800bhp and the V8 bottom end with forged pistons is ok for 1200bhp - this is based on turbocharging and NOS to add the extra welly so the revs don't need to be so high. Of course with aftermarket cranks and rods you might be able go higher but are they available outside the one-off drag race bits world?

[biteme]

I think Fensport are producing 650bhp on a car that's useable on the street, the track and the drag strip.

I've seen built 2.2 3SGTE's that are using monster turbo's that don't spool until around 5krpm and have a 9krpm rev limit - these are the 800bhp+ cars that are effectively unusable, except for the 1/4 mile strip.

[Zip]

Toyota superchargers (or more likely the intake systems) are terrible though as far as I can see...? The TRD devision use Eatons which are a bit better, but the basic Toyota roots jobs for instance (theory again) in the case of the 4AGE v 4AGZE:




Actually the Aurion with the supercharger is a TRD model:thumbsup:

[Shorty]

The 3sgte looks to have great potential. Cost is through the roof, but still. You can see some of them here (http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2records/dyno.htm). Love watching dynorunz:) And these are RWhp so on the fly it really is great resuts.

[MegatronUK]

That V6 sounds rather fabby... just needs a high performance head deriviative and it should be ace.

[MartG]

amazing engine! you are aware it doesnt actually fit though lol

Maybe it could.....

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/9062/stretchedmr2ou3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)