3vz-fe Twin charged

[mr2japan]

Oh yeah.. This is what I really want to do..

Twin-charging my 3vz-fe...
I don't want turbo lag through any gears. :D
I CAN keep my current transmission E153

Where is my inspiration.. THIS...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=HmscSzFurwg

I'll be starting with a supercharger first though.. :D

[Goldy]

Oh yes! Awesome project, got any more details on your plans?

[mr2japan]

No.. If you check out this link though. Gives you some ideas. I will be looking into many more builds like this. Though I will need to find something closer to what I am running. 3vzfe (so a 3.0L)..
Supercharger is low end power, and turbo is high end. I will need to figure out which SC to use, and which turbo. I figure I can go with a HUGE turbo since by the time SC is counted out of the mix, the turbo can take it from there.

Goal is to get great acceleration out of my 2.

Side project to this is weight reduction. I want to get it as light as I can without screwing up the weight distribution.

Someone told me I will get no traction. I believe 2 fuel systems is part of the key. Not to over power yourself in the low RPM (I don't want corvette wide tires either). Where you are using a more basic setup down low RPM/gears (to the limit), and then it switches over to the e85 113 octane. Boom! You fly!

I must have hard acceleration in 5th gear! NO LAG!

[mr2japan]

Just some research.. I think I would need a kit to support the 3L of my engine. Would I really need to match it up? Any ideas. Like with a super charger you would need to get a super charger that is suitable for your Liter engine. Something about the power band being different. Though things get fuzzy for me there. With turbo that don't matter as much. I mean you can't put a tiny turbo on a big/powerful engine.

http://www.atsdiesel.com/ats2/templates/template_06.asp?p=2029422272&c=36

[mr2japan]

More info I found on a 350z forum..

Here is some technical information on selecting turbos for use in a compound turbo system, followed by an example.

Both turbo chargers need to support the mass air flow (MAF) that is required for the desired hp. Determining the capabilities of the larger turbo is relatively straight forward - look at the turbo's compressor map and find where the pressure ratio of the large turbo (Bbt) and MAF intersect. On the map, Corrected Air Flow corresponds to MAF.

For the small turbo, determining the MAF capabilities is a little more tricky because the compressor maps are generated at atmospheric pressure (1 Bar) and at 25 deg. C (298 deg. K), and the MAF capabilities of a compressor changes in accordance with both of these parameters. So, in order to determine the MAF capabilities of the small turbo in this particular setup, a MAF correction factor (MAFcorr) must be generated so that we can still use the published map. The equation to do this is:

MAFcorr = MAF * ((Tin2/Tref) / (Pin2/Pref))^0.5

where

Tin2 is the temperature in deg. K of the intake charge into the small turbo compressor (from the large turbo compressor), Tref = 298, Pref = 1, and Pin2 is the absolute pressure of the intake charge into the small turbo compressor in Bars (boost pressure in bars + 1 bar).

Tin2 = Tin1 + (Tin1 * ((Pin2/Pin1)^0.15) - 1)/eff

where Tin1 is the intake air temperature into the large turbo and Pin1 is atmospheric pressure, and eff is the efficiency of the large turbo at the pressure ratio/MAF point on the compressor map.

EDIT: I found varying references for the value of the exponent for computing Tin2. This value has a lot to do with the volume of the tubing etc. after the turbo. I set this equation up in a spread sheet, and adjusted the value of the exponent to output a value that matches the I/C intake temperature as posted by Sharif in XKR's previous build. I will do more research on this, but I'll use 0.15 for now. I have updated the analysis below based on this.

To convert from deg. C to deg. K, add 273 to the deg. C reading. To convert from deg. F to deg. K, K = (F + 459.67)*(5/9). Alternatively, just use this conversion web site: http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm. Also, remember that the air flow has not yet been cooled by the I/C.

The MAF correction factor and boost ratio of the small turbo charger then can be plotted on the small turbo's compressor map.


Example #1

Displacement: 3.5 L
Desired power: 1000 whp
Setup: Quad turbo (compound turbos for each bank)
Computed MAF: 54.5 lb/min per side
Computed Boost (above atmosphere): 36.2 psi (2.5 Bar)
Intake Air Temp: 77 deg. F, (25 deg. C, 298 deg. K)

Bt = 2.5 Bar + 1 Bar = 3.5 Bar

To divide the boost up evenly, let's try:

Bbt = Bst = 3.5^0.5 = 1.87

Based on the compressor map for the GT3582, it will not flow 55 lb/min at a pressure ratio of 1.87 with adequate efficiency. So lets try a GT4088R (yes it will be hard to find a place to fit this, but let's ignore that for this example).

At Bbt = 1.9, the GT4088R flows 54.5 lb/min at 70% efficiency

Tin2 = 298 + (298 * ((1.9^0.15) - 1)/0.70 = 349 deg. K

MAFcorr = 54.5 * ((349/298)/(1.9/1))^0.5 = 42.7 (use as lb/min value in published map)

So, for the small turbo, we need a turbo that flows 42.7 lb/min at a 1.9 pressure ratio. The GT2876 just makes it. It will flow 42.7 lb/min at about 65% efficiency.


In contrast to example #1, if the turbos were available with larger compressor inducers (e.g., higher trim values), then we could use a GT3582/GT2871 combination. This would give us the hp of the GT3582 with the turbo lag of the GT2871.

At Bbt = 2.3, the GT3582 flows at 73% efficiency.
Bst = 3.5/2.3 = 1.5
Tin2 = 365 deg. K
MAFcorr = 39.7

Although the GT2871 will flow 39.7 lb/min, not at a pressure ratio of 1.5. At that pressure it is beyond the choke line. With a 56 Trim, 0.60 A/R, it needs about a 1.8 pressure ratio to get to the required air flow. With the right compressor blades it could get there at a pressure ratio of 1.5, though. I'm speculating that a trim in the range of 60 - 70 might work, but that is just my guess by comparing the 48 and 56 trim maps.

[mr2japan]

Found the info about doing it, and my explination of the supercharger matching up with the 3l engine (importance of matching SC to your engine)..

http://www.torquecars.com/tuning/twincharging.php

[Paul Woods]

You would be far better off using the 3s-gte and adding a supercharger to that.

Reasons being, it's already turbocharged, it is a much better platform to accept boost,the 3vz will need twice as much money throwing at it to get to even basic 3s-gte boost levels nevermind compound charging.

There is great aftermarket support for the 3s-gte, there is none for the 3vz, this means EVERYTHING needs fabricating or adapting from other engines.

Overall power will be more easily achieveable using the turbo engine, it will cost a lot less and half of the hard work is already done for you. If it were me and i had my heart set on a compound setup with no lag i'd feed a clutch driven SC into the inlet of the turbo, mounted where the alternator is (easiest place for pipe routing) and relocate the alternator to the Celica position (again all parts available off the shelf)

I think your idea is great, but i've been down the boosting a V6 route a few times and it costs a hell of a lot of money to build.

Just my opinion, a twincharge 1mz has been built before many years ago with good results, but do the same thing to the 3s-gte with suitable upgrades and it will be a lot better, it will weigh less too, a 3vz is already slightly heavier than a turbo motor, add the turbo gear to the 3vz and you will be considerably heavier, of course both motors have the added weight of the SC stuff, but the 3vz is no lightweight.

For the amount of time and money this will cost another option would be going 2gr, that has no lag and pretty much does the same job out of the box, supercharge that if you want forced induction. A compound 3vz sounds good on paper, but in reality it's a very deep wallet excercise that will take you years of part time work to build.

Not putting a downer on your project, just a little reality check, i'll be watching with interest for sure if it does happen.

[mr2japan]

I will be supercharging first. Few months after that I will pick this project up. I am just trying to get as much ideas, info I can get. I do know of a 3vzfe using Eaton M62 Supercharger. I would couple that up with a suitable turbo. Custom parts is half the fun. I don't like showing up to a car event and seeing the same thing over and over. Your the inventor, no GOD FATHER:praise2: of all things interesting when it comes to MR2 and something new/different. So you know what I am saying. Shop owner in Toronto Canada I know has just the Super charger. Same one I mentioned. Sure it's on his Lexus, but still 3vzfe. I'm going for a duplicate application in my MR2. Then will draw things up for the next level.

Dyno run (different views lawl)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk_EWZhaOeI
Dyno at link below
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/413356_10101283386031182_937830997_o.jpg

PS - If no one else has done it with 3VZFE.. It almost means.. I GOTTA! :driving:
PPS - You are the reason I put in a 3VZFE.. Don't tell me to go back and put in a 3sgte.. You inspired me in this direction already. If I go back my head will pop! :puke:

[Paul Woods]

I know where you are coming from, but that's my point, nobody has a compound charged 3s-gte either, it would still be unique, and it will ...

Be easier to build
Cost considerably less
Produce more power
Have aftermarket support

Based on the above there is no reason to compound a 3vz apart from just wanting a twincharged V6, which is pretty cool, but extremely hard to achieve. Just making a 3vz strong enough for all of this boost is going to cost thousands.

If you do go for it best advice i can give is pay special attention to crankcase breathing, you get considerable blow-by boosting a 3vz.

[mr2japan]

Duly noted.. An damn you. XD

Just for my brain. How would the 3s-gte produce more power with the compound setup vs the 3zv-fe with the compound setup. This could make, or break my craziness for today.

[Paul Woods]

You will never get the V6 to rev as high as a 3s-gte, which have been known to be tuned to 700bhp, so ignoring the compound side of things (which only removes lag lower down and doesn't give more peak power) the 3s-gte will always produce more power than a turbocharged V6 (relative to the amount of money spent, anything is possible with enough funding). Cam profiles, head flowing, headers, stroke, and just trying to make a previously NA engine run boosted are all obstacles.

Bonfire pissed on, my work here is done :hits-the-fan:

[dgh938peg]

Olly.Wel / Olly.Dent is in the process now of twin charging his 3sgte. Using a rotrex charger and GT30 ....

[Goldy]

Olly.Wel / Olly.Dent is in the process now of twin charging his 3sgte. Using a rotrex charger and GT30 ....

I don't think Rotrex is a great option for twincharging as they have are a similar design to a turbo apart from being spun directly from the engine so don't have the low rev boost. A roots supercharger will give the boost from the off but they tail off towards the top of the rev range so are ideal for twincharging.

[dgh938peg]

Similar to a turbo yes but no different in delivery than an Eaton style Si. All very linear in delivery. In fact, the big power SC cars use the rotrex/vortech setups. They're good for tremendous hp.... :thumbsup:

[Goldy]

Similar to a turbo yes but no different in delivery than an Eaton style Si. All very linear in delivery. In fact, the big power SC cars use the rotrex/vortech setups. They're good for tremendous hp.... :thumbsup:

Rotrex / Vortech are centrifugal compressor type superchargers aren't they? Therefore they deliver exponentially increasing boost as rpm increases so ideal for big power as you say, they produce boost at low rpm's but it tends to be low. Roots charger are positive displacement and deliver a fixed ammount of air each rotation, therefore they deliver linearly increasing boost as the RPM increases so produce higher boost at lower levels but tend to tail off at the top due to efficiencies.

Here's a slightly biased image from whipple to demonstrate though for a twin screw charger....

http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/images/pages/whyawhipple/morepower.gif

[Barronmr]

Go for it!!!

I started years ago, still got 2 Eaton M90's sat in my garage lol.

[mr2japan]

It all makes sense now. Stupid revs.. :( Though I'm still thinking about going back into this one. I wonder how much money this would take. Since the obvious would need to be re-rebuilt, and yeah other engines sound appealing at the money saved.

Thanks for the help. :D

[mr2japan]

Anyone think I should just buy a M62 Eaton for $200 (one in my area). Then supercharge my 3vzfe. Should be relatively inexpensive enough to get the remaining parts. Even if I don't do the work myself. Still pretty cheap project. Eh????

[Paul Woods]

I think you need a budget of at least £5000-£6000 doing it all yourself, i'd be amazed if you can pull it off for less doing it all properly by the book. I think you'd be well over £10k getting a garage to do it.

[snowtigger]

2gr end of argument .

[GaryA]

Search on here for antnkels supercharger build and 3vzfe turbo build add the two together and that's the kind of grief you will get , you have to be bonkers to boost the 3vz or an engineering genius ! It's a project that takes huge amounts of time and money.

[mr2japan]

I think you need a budget of at least £5000-£6000 doing it all yourself, i'd be amazed if you can pull it off for less doing it all properly by the book. I think you'd be well over £10k getting a garage to do it.

Are you including rebuilding and forging the ending in this. If so.. I have this already done. I would figure it's just stand alone ecu, or piggy back. SC, SC plumbing, intercooler, fuel upgrades, labor, and tune. Ya?

[Paul Woods]

If you've already built a forged 3vz then that is a massive chunk of costs, i still think you will need to throw a small fortune at it though.

[dgh938peg]

forged block is a fantastic start but your next biggest grief will be the heads & valve ports. As our old friend who, for all his faults, knew a thing or two about flowing heads. The runners to and from the valves are not the ideal design, far from it in fact. The exhaust ports have a dog-leg in them - very poor for flow

Next will be the cams - ok these can be reground but unless you can come up with a backlash vernier gear this will be another sticking point.

Further on, the intake has a huge swooping arc into each bank of the head - again far from ideal. The lower head portion where the injectors are mounted - again a big restriction here where the injector enter the port (a fair percentage of this can be corrected. The intake itself good for fuel economy, poor for power. i calculated at the narrowest point of this intake for 300hp you need to flow 15'000ft/min of air... very very bad!!!!! plan on a max of 8-10'000ft/min

As much as we love the V6 in stock form, opening it up to gain more power is a real challenge - as i too am finding out.... The best i have heard is WTF-Auto (on a 1mz i might add) with ~540whp with a HEAVILY modified engine running a true twin-turbo (not bi-turbo) setup..

[mr2japan]

Head has nice port and polish already. I planned on Turbo this guy from the start. It's actually a NEW factory head I had worked on. Stupid I know, but I just like that NEW work at the time. :( Now I like the word REBUILT. Anyways, I am tired of the grind, and 275-300whp will make me happy in my MR2. I am still killing cars now with 170whp. Being light helps a lot. Sticky tires too. :D +Dare devil

Anyways, I think it's just putting the SC on. I got it today. :D Here is a few pics.. What do I need now??

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/416059_349470121796253_2003688506_o.jpg
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/277809_349470141796251_602682148_o.jpg
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/334189_349469985129600_764814434_o.jpg

[mr2japan]

If you've already built a forged 3vz then that is a massive chunk of costs, i still think you will need to throw a small fortune at it though.

Mr.Woods, how much for the ISCV adapter body that ensures the stock idle control valve can still be used.??

Anyone know which piggy back I should use?

[mr2japan]

O.o Found a post from 2009 where Paul was saying someone could use the TRD SC with the stock ECU fine. :D I don't think that is what I would like to do, but it's nice to know.

PW@Woodsport
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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject:
FizzyBlueMr2 wrote:
Nice - I realise theres a little work to line up the pulley on a 3vz engine, but will it work with the stock auto ecu and injectors?

How much would fitting the unit be? Could save on postage by collecting it (by storing it on top of the engine ) in person.


Yes it will work with the stock auto ecu and injectors perfectly fine, we were the first garage in the world to make a TRD SC work on a 3vz-fe, but you will also need my ISCV throttle body adapter that i designed to make this work on a 3vz, that costs £300 for me to make.

Fitting of everything will cost around £200 including everything else thats needed (minor replumbing of breathers and vac pipes etc) , it will also mean blanking off your cold start injector pipe (easy) and a few other little jobs to make it fit.

Hope that helps.