View Full Version : V6 dies during track day - Rod Knock
Well - it doesn't completely die.
This is the first track day with the car and toward the end of my second session I start getting really bad rod knock.
http://youtu.be/9UYY30phasg
Sorry, the video is terrible because I just put on new suspension and it vibrates the camera a lot.
After reviewing the video I think I might be part to blame in that I was keeping the engine revved pretty high in a couple sections. The main reason was that I didn't want to go to fast, but I think that was a mistake. Oh well, lesson learned. Hopefully only the bearing is toasted and I can just swap it out by taking the oil pan off.
cdwood2010
16-04-2012, 14:59
Ouch!
Have you baffled your sump?
Might have run it dry on a sweeping bend?
C.
I bought the engine from a guy who said it was baffled. I should have checked, but he did a complete engine rebuild (to freshen it up not for more power), and I hate cracking open new gaskets and stuff. I wish the gauges were clearer in the video to see if the engine was getting starved of oil in the long sweeping turns. Ill find out for sure if the pan is baffled when I drop it to check all the rod bearings. Ill probably replace them all and re-torque everything. Hopefully the damage is limited to the rod bearing and it won't require regrinding the crank or anything.
It is possible to that he forgot to tighten some things down because one of the timing belt pulleys came loose shortly after getting the car running.
cdwood2010
16-04-2012, 18:34
Bloody hell!
Got a spare sump here if you want one to play with. Also got some spare pistons etc here if you end up digging deeper.
And if you fit a sandwich plate you can fit a proper oil pressure gauge in the car - might be worth it for future runs.
C.
Bloody hell!
Got a spare sump here if you want one to play with. Also got some spare pistons etc here if you end up digging deeper.
And if you fit a sandwich plate you can fit a proper oil pressure gauge in the car - might be worth it for future runs.
C.
I have a sandwich plate with both oil temp and pressure and the temps didn't get crazy hot. Most of the time around 250°F but after the rod let go it was about 300. The pressures seemed good, but I wasn't looking at them while I was in a turn. When I get the car sorted out I will have to take it to a round-about and see what happens.
I would love to borrow your spare sump, but Im in the states so shipping it back and forth might be a bit price. Thank you for teh offer though. It is probably wise to invest in one anyways.
That certainly sounded terminal, as you were pulling into the paddock towards the end I was cringing at the sound. Sounds like your shell bearings and possibly a damaged crank.
Sorry to hear that buddy, hope you get it sorted quickly.
cdwood2010
16-04-2012, 20:38
I would love to borrow your spare sump, but Im in the states so shipping it back and forth might be a bit price. Thank you for teh offer though. It is probably wise to invest in one anyways.
More than welcome.
Yeah, that's why I have it, although it might be a while before I do anything with.
I know Paul said that the oil level warning light on the 3VZ will warn you when the oil level drops. The sump I have doesn't have one, but I guess one could be fitted.
If you're engine doesn't have one it might be worth looking into - it sits just below and to the right of the crank pulley.
Az (MrT) saved his engine from certain doom thanks to that sensor I seem to recall.
C.
I lost an engine that way too...
baffled sump would be the way to go... was tempted to fab one up with a bit of plate, a bike inner tube, and a few pop rivets
but as Im selling the yellow beast to finance other things, sort of dont have the time to invest in it anymore
the limo wont be under that kind of stress so wont need development in that area.....
Can you describe how you are going to make a sump out of the parts you listed? I am not very familiar with how they work.
dgh938peg
17-04-2012, 08:51
I haven't even looked at the video but will hazard an educated guess that it was on a sweeping right hander....
Get that sump baffled .... STAT! :D
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/06/13.jpg
I did this after mine failed.... Sweeping right hander.....
Anyway, i had to drive the poorly old girl some 6 miles home which had a positive effect... The duff bearing on piston 2 rod heated up causing the bearing face of the rod to shrink. Thankfully that could be re-bored to standard dimensions. The crank however needed taking down 0.5mm though allowed a tasty rebuild with ACL bearings.
that plate is a good starting point(more a dam than a baffle at this point.)
basically I would have put a few more holes in the plate,then cut the inner tube so it was a long rectangle,
and attached it to the plate so that the rubber section was on the oil pick up side of the wall/dam, so oil behind it will force it away from the plate, letting it flow towards the pick up. and as it sloshes the other way on sustained right hand corners it pushes the flap against the plate sealing up the holes...
dgh938peg
17-04-2012, 14:02
the plate has gaps in each bottom corner to allow oil to run through but agree with what you're saying sketchy... I am using this in conjunction with an Accumulator - to hopefully avoid any further re-occurrance...
If I get a chance, Ill take a pic of the baffled oil pans we make at my work for the Ford Mustang race cars. They are pretty fancy. They have hinged baffles. They don't look like they are too hard to make.
I am sold on the accusump idea. So the plan is to do baffled sump + accusump + oil pressure warning light
Does this look baffled to anyone? I don't know what the tank usually looks like, but this wasn't what I was expecting if this is tank is baffled.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/04/198.jpg
Here are bits of one bearing:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/04/199.jpg
I haven't had a chance to undo the rod, but it looks like #2 is bad.
racerADS
18-04-2012, 11:54
Hmm to me that looks like it would almost have the opposite effect and actually keep the normal flow of oil away from the pickup??? Thought the whole point of the baffle was to stop oil sloshing side to side? So vertical baffles rather than horizontal shelves in this case?
cdwood2010
18-04-2012, 12:54
Hmm to me that looks like it would almost have the opposite effect and actually keep the normal flow of oil away from the pickup??? Thought the whole point of the baffle was to stop oil sloshing side to side? So vertical baffles rather than horizontal shelves in this case?
Yep, pretty much!
There might be something under that plate, some of the more elaborate baffles keep the oil down low (no sloshing) AND stop it sitting at the wrong end in a long turn.
Does that plate come out? Anything under it?
So far I think the mid plate with holes and a flap (metal or rubber) is the simplest solution.
C.
There is nothing under this plate, and its welded in. Also, it looks like the crank was rubbing on it too. The light spot to the left of the large circular hole is one of two spots that the crank was actually hitting. The second one is right in the glare of the light.
So it looks like I have my work cut out for me. Ill send pics of the crank when I get the rod unbolted and the bearing removed. Then I will also sand blast and weld in new baffles and repaint it. While working on that I will work on getting an accusump too.
dgh938peg
19-04-2012, 08:46
That will not have a positive effect at all.... Worse still, any oil sat on top will be whipped up and froth by the crank... Cut that puppy out! STAT!
thats what I would call a "windage tray"
as you dont really want a fast moving crank, to suddenly hit a resistive object(a wall of oil) unless you really like breaking things.
water is still hard if you hit it fast enough when falling.....
I have actually pulled a few sumps off and found a windage tray bolted to the main bearing caps.serve the same purpose as that one in the sump. but they offer no protection when the oil moves away from the pumps pick up:(
fully cutting it out may not be the best thing to do, but Id definately change it...
Moustachio
19-04-2012, 12:17
I just watched the vid, gutted for you dude, thats a sound no petrolhead should have to hear! Hope you sort it.
OK, pics time.
Hmm, there is only 1/2 bearing there:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/04/215.jpg
Looks like probably need a new rod?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/04/216.jpg
So my best course of action is to pull the motor and replace all the rod and main bearings?
at this point. unless you have spent on the heads, and other internals, wich will need a damn good flush, incase some flackes are in the galleries still...
Id start fresh, if its just a standard engine. go find another, give it the quick run, compression test and new belts while its out, and sort out a new sump before it goes in the car. and treat it as a hand grenade:D
thats why its called development on a race car.....;)
cdwood2010
20-04-2012, 08:33
Probably very good advice, it will probably save you chasing your tail a lot.
This is actually scaring me - I may have to baffle my sump before I do any track days.
:)
dgh938peg
20-04-2012, 08:42
sketchy is right really...
Unless you are totally anal about stripping down, cleaning and rebuilding then you're another blown motor waiting to happen. Simply swapping the bearings will not suffice.....
1. measure both the rod bore (bolted tight) and the #2 journal on the crank. Given that amount of bearing damage i'd guess you need a 0.75mm regrind on the crank (with luck that is - if it needs more than that then the crank is scrap). If you are lucky, the rod will have shrunk and can be re-machined to the correct internal diameter - that's what i had with the rod.
(My costs of this were ~£350 inc fresh bearings - i paid £400 for the whole working Camry)
that way you'll need 0.75mm oversize bearings (ACL can do 0.5 max i think)
2. How much is all new gaskets gonna cost you? Probably another £100-150 i guess for quality stuff.
You can discount your labour as either way you're pulling the engine out.
3. Is it worth doing rings while you're there?
(added costs again)
4. Inspect the bores of #2..... Unlikely, but possible, for it in extreme cases to cause bore damage. If the bore is scored then i would probably scrap and start again.
So maybe £600 you'll have a fresh built motor as long as you are ANAL about cleaning and flushing.
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