The V12 Mk2 thread [Archive] - Woodsport Forum & The TB Archive

Paul Woods

06-02-2011, 16:49

Ok this should be good, who'd like to see a V12 Mr2 being built?

I'm taking delivery of a V12 very soon for this very purpose, the V8 build was a challenge and will be completed as a road going car by JAE with only its bodywork left to do, so i need to get my teeth into something new.

Just like the V8 build i'm not shooting for mega BHP (you can do that with a 3s-gte) , i've got 350bhp in NA form with the V8, and expecting around 400bhp NA with the V12, so it won't be slow, but being done just to prove it can be.

It will also have a 6 speed box.

(same thread running on a few forums to get peoples opinions on it)

Nik we need a 2.12 swap section lol.

Discuss!

MRV6

06-02-2011, 17:38

Tissues out! Subscribed plus if it will help I will swallow.

Paul Woods

06-02-2011, 17:44

You swallow anyway.... we all know that.

Aware

06-02-2011, 17:51

OMG...it just gets better... :eek2:

Subscribed...nice thinking, Paul...as usual... :thumbsup:

GaryA

06-02-2011, 18:01

You taken a bang to the head :icon_biggrin:

This is going to be an epic ! What V12 or is it top secret at the moment

Lee

06-02-2011, 18:11

Off top of my head i can only think of a few V12's that are around now what one you going for Paul? I'd say for BMW seeing as an Aston or Lambo engine might be a fair bit of money!

Wasn't there a Toyota V12 at some point. In a big Japan only Sedan. One was slotted into a Supra from what I remember.

Look forward to seeing how it goes Paul, just get the other done for JAE first as I really want to see that in the metal :smile:

MRV6

06-02-2011, 18:16

You taken a bang to the head :icon_biggrin:

This is going to be an epic ! What V12 or is it top secret at the moment

Paula and top secret don't go in the same sentence.

Paul Woods

06-02-2011, 18:22

Yes the BMW V12 is the chosen weapon of choice this time, and on a Mk2, bloody thing won't go into a Mk1. I won't be starting this until the V8 is 100% done though.

MRV6

06-02-2011, 18:26

Yes the BMW V12 is the chosen weapon of choice this time, and on a Mk2, bloody thing won't go into a Mk1. I won't be starting this until the V8 is 100% done though.

Paula the world's suppose to end in 2012!

Paul Woods

06-02-2011, 18:29

I plan on coinciding the project being finished with you getting your wallet out at the bar.... just thought of the project name "mission impossible"

nik

06-02-2011, 18:30

paul you have a new forum for your Mk2.12..will move this thread tomorrow morning for you, you madman!!

MRV6

06-02-2011, 18:33

I plan on coinciding the project being finished with you getting your wallet out at the bar.... just thought of the project name "mission impossible"

Hmmm so never then?? Would anyone apart from Douglas Barder be able to fit in it?

nik

06-02-2011, 18:40

me!! thank you paul, you shouldn't have!!

MRV6

06-02-2011, 18:42

me!! thank you paul, you shouldn't have!!

I can see you in a mk2 Nik, suits you Sir!!

Paul Woods

06-02-2011, 18:42

LOL thankyou squire, it'll be a little empty in there!

hmmmmm

06-02-2011, 20:52

Yes the madness continues! I was thinking of the W12 from volkswagen but the bmw unit will do the trick :) Im presuming its from a 7 series? What year exactly?

Rowdan

06-02-2011, 21:43

Funnily enough I spent today moving/palleting up a V12 engine:icon_wink:

Spook

06-02-2011, 22:12

oh fantastic, i was just watching Top Gear & started to fancy a V12 Biturbo Mercedes.... well done Paul, got to see this.

Torero

06-02-2011, 22:23

Superb Paul, pushing the boundaries yet again :praise2:. I must admit around London I occasionally hear the the sound and Aston or Maserati makes when the 12 pots are firing away when the loud pedal s pressed and it is awesome.

ps. you looking for a donor car BTW - for research purposes of course :eusa_whistle:

snowtigger

06-02-2011, 22:46

Convertible mk2 just to hear the sound all the time, hmmm if any one can do it it's you bud, I'm just not feeling it to be honest, technically it will be cool and fast and probably the only one ever to be built.
Good on you mate I will be subscribing to this thread just get the mk1 ready for jae .

OlberJ

06-02-2011, 22:50

What's the script then, extended chassis? Longitudinal? Transverse and extra wide car?

Mad project, well in.

dgh938peg

06-02-2011, 22:56

It's gotta be longitudinal Obler - the block on the bimmer V12 is really unconducive with transverse mounting. The sump would be a headache also. Really interested on your measurements for this lot Paul :)

Goldy

07-02-2011, 00:19

Paul I think you're totally nuts but totally awesome idea! I am soo subscribed to this thread, I remember when I was a lad this idea being mooted about somewhere on this forum, will be great to see it come to fruition!

Please please please finish the V8 first though!

BMW V12 + 6 speed box would be great.... you fancy making it 4wd for an extra challenge?

AlunJ

07-02-2011, 02:14

TB crazyness strikes again :praise2:
It's gotta have throttle bodies. Lots of throttle bodies. Just for the noise.

sketchy

07-02-2011, 03:14

ok, If I was to do this, Id go north/south(like the v8.) tube chassis rear obviously.

are you poaching a v12 from an 850 or something?...those things are immense...

would you do it like the lambo? and mount the engine backwards and run a drive shaft under/beside/through the sump?
or like the v8 with the trans straight off the back?

Paul Woods

07-02-2011, 07:18

Thanks for the support with this one chaps, i won't be starting it until the V8 is done though but it can be discussed to death here until i do start.

I will be using a BMW 850 motor mounted inline with the audi 6 speed box exactly like the V8 is in the Mk1. Without stretching the chassis it will mean using all of the space behind the seats again just like the V8 Mk1. I haven't taken any preliminary measurements but i've seen pics of the Audi V8 into Mk2 and it barely encroaches into the cabin. Mk2's have a lot of dead space behind the seats, lots more than a Mk1 has, so i'll be taking advantage of that.

The BMW motor is 29.25" from front to rear, but i think i can ditch stuff from the front to get that down a few inches, but it should still fit even at 29"

Paul Woods

07-02-2011, 07:51

Moving to the 2.12 section lol

snowtigger

07-02-2011, 09:19

Is the v10 not be easier to fit or is that a future fitment, as the price for that engine is horrendous, but 500bhp can't be sniffed at.
Also Paul did you see the e30 v12 twin turbo motor on YouTube stonking bhp and massive torque, will give most of the supercars a good run for the money.

OlberJ

07-02-2011, 20:53

The BMW motor is 29.25" from front to rear, but i think i can ditch stuff from the front to get that down a few inches, but it should still fit even at 29"

Coolness.

What's the Audi lump end to end without gearbox?

Rosssco

07-02-2011, 21:04

FFS! Mk2.12, becoming a bit of mouthful!

Paul, I thought I'd migrate a bit of the info from the red place to the proper home of such discussion in case its any use. More photos of the 6-speed gearbox (Audi code: OB1) I bought for use with a ABZ V8, my original thinking being I could avoid firewall / chassis member / fuel tank mods or ANY cabin intrusion. That's because Audi (in an attempt to move the engine rearwards for weight distribution porpoises), put the differential in front of the clutch and flywheel. Effectively, if you run this gearbox with a slight bit a drive shaft angle, the rear hubs can be in line with the bell-housing face of the engine. So a ~20" long V8 will fit in the ~21-22" space between this dimension.. Just :thumbsup: Anyhoo, I digress.

As its fitted to 2.0 Turbo Audi's, which standard produce around 250lb/ft of torque (and weigh ~1500kg), I was pretty happy that it would cope well, perhaps even with the standard clutch, with the ~300lb/ft of a 4.2 V8 in a lighter car. Its a pretty much untested gearbox however (as its relatively new) so I'm unsure how it will do with a larger capacity V12... Audi don't tend to do many weak gearboxes though, as can be seen with the 01x, which originally came with similar output engines. Anyhoo, it would potentially save you a good 4" (:eusa_naughty:), so food for thought!

Pic-a-tures:

http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/47180/2113619230075555354S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2113619230075555354EnNYkT)

http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/39553/2710301120075555354S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2710301120075555354yynqbR)

http://inlinethumb45.webshots.com/13612/2405083740075555354S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2405083740075555354stmPpF)

http://inlinethumb45.webshots.com/46060/2951242110075555354S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2951242110075555354xOAEWy)

http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/20030/2850942600075555354S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2850942600075555354BWJmhe)

http://inlinethumb60.webshots.com/18811/2173252440075555354S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2173252440075555354uJuoRO)

http://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/44672/2996550530075555354S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2996550530075555354MuXbHQ)

http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/6126/2607755140075555354S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2607755140075555354nBCCwk)

http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/47989/2486894820075555354S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2486894820075555354jwHLcF)

Thread rape over...:eek4:

Diesel Meister

07-02-2011, 21:13

M70 madness. You're ripe for a headcheck Mr Woods :icon_lol:

Seriously though, this is about the best V12 in terms of availability and noise - see na few in E30s and Lambo reps and they were epic.

I do also recall the Hoopra someone mentioned above - didn't it have about four turbos strapped on to it or something?

EDIT: Found it - Smokey Nagata of Top Secret. Figures! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Qr6IZF14Y)

Paul - you know where this is going!

sketchy

07-02-2011, 21:21

thats a nifty little trans, though you probably wouldnt say little if you dropped it on your foot.

so have you got a shell in mind?. just remember the targa's actually have more "depth" of material in the sills and pillars...the extra reinforcing will be your friend

Id start with a targa shell, and get the roof from a hardtop and weld in the missing section, though if your gonna add a jungle gym kinda surplus really....lol

if adding a jungle gym, Idactually reinforce the sills,cut a hole in the wheel arch and slide the pipe inside the sill, or cut away the sill, build the cage and refit the sill.

that way your not encroaching into the door space too much, your not having issues with seat fitment as its narrow in the floor as it is...

is this gonna be a "because I can car" a showing off car, or a racer eventually?

snowtigger

07-02-2011, 22:14

smokey is just as mad as a box of frogs, but you just have to love the japanese samuri spirit.
but one of the reasons we have a speed limit of 70 was because of a racing driver testing a cobra lm at 197 on the m1 as that was the only stretch of straight road at the time and bsa and norton and triumph motor bikes at over 100 are also guilty of road testing flat out there as well, i dont think mr sensible paul will cough cough be braking any speed limits though or doing burn outs on his expensive tires on the public highways hes much to sensible?

OlberJ

08-02-2011, 00:32

sketchy

08-02-2011, 05:43

Paul Woods

08-02-2011, 06:40

Cheers Ross, after speaking to you on the pink pages we think that trans is the way to go to get as much length saved as possible, you may well have saved us 5-6" there.

This will be a pure "because we can" car, it won't even be detailed, just pulling it off will be the mission. Good advice on the T-bag, frustratingly i chucked one away last month, which would have been a great donor car, but they are ten a penny these days.

Spook

08-02-2011, 08:26

Thanks Diesel Meister, a V12 twin turbo supra gave me a great laugh at the start of the working day, wouldnt that car be epic if it was a sleeper, just painted grey!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QKOr_nP_Q&feature=related

Of course we dont condone such hilarity on british roads, but 'no speak english' on damp bendy motorway, sheer nuts in every sense!!

Spook

08-02-2011, 08:30

Paul , you HAVE to detail it, do a proper Woodsport job, then get an article in every magazine you can, INCLUDING the conventional motoring press, I can see it now - home grown Geordie Supercar takes on Ferrari!

Of course we will all go on about huge engine power & turbo everything, but keep sort of it simple! NA power and beautiful noise.

If you are going to do it, then do it right...

Lee

08-02-2011, 10:45

Na don't bother detailing it. Get it in and functioning. Any making pretty stuff I can do myself :icon_mrgreen:

Torero

08-02-2011, 13:46

I read somewhere that someone doubts your talents and has bet you £100 that it won't fit.

All I can say is haha haha HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HA HA HA :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::l augh2::laugh2:

MRV6

08-02-2011, 17:46

This finished yet Paula????

Paul Woods

08-02-2011, 18:10

I asked that particular keyboard warrior to up the bet to £500, it would go towards my ECU, but no reply from him yet.

snowtigger

08-02-2011, 18:19

Tosser keyboard warriors, I bet you will do it mate no problems, I wasn't saying it shouldn't be done just why Would some one whant one being done, I think a v8 mk1/2/3 would be enough for any one, but who am I to say don't do it, I fancy a v10 mk1 so there or a w12/16.

Paul Woods

08-02-2011, 18:33

The V12 mk2 will never be a conversion someone asks me for, it would cost too much and a bit pointless, but we want to build one just to say it can be done.

Goldy

08-02-2011, 18:54

I asked that particular keyboard warrior to up the bet to £500, it would go towards my ECU, but no reply from him yet.

I bet you 1000 hob nobs that you won't be able to do it.... :hidesbehi:

(is that enough motivation for you? :thumbsup: )

Paul Woods

08-02-2011, 19:01

Done!! No getting out of that either mate it's there in black and white plus everyone's witnessed it lol

Goldy

08-02-2011, 19:07

Bugger..... at 24 hob nobs in a pack, that's ahem.... 41 packs so should keep you going for at least 3 days.

I tell thee what, if you get the V8 to JAE you can have the hobnobs up front!

Paul Woods

08-02-2011, 19:19

Deal! (i'll push it there if need be)

Paul Woods

08-02-2011, 19:32

The beast is on its way....

http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/198.jpg

sketchy

08-02-2011, 19:52

The beast is on its way....

http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2005/04/52.jpg

I thought this was gonna be a hard project, the audi v8 looked bigger.....:(

if your gonna keep it NA, you going ITB's???lol

snowtigger

08-02-2011, 19:58

f me thats tiny youll easy get that in a mk2 with loads of room to spare it looks as big as the v6, what a piece of piss this is going to be hobnobs in the back of the net.

goldy i maybe able to get a bulk discount on the hobnobs all depends if my mate still works for mcvities in manchester, i normaly get the rejects as they are dirt cheap.

Rosssco

08-02-2011, 20:55

I thought this was gonna be a hard project, the audi v8 looked bigger.....:(

if your gonna keep it NA, you going ITB's???lol

Doesn't look too big does it... Its the length though. The Audi V8 is a short fat little f*&ker (fat in a wide sense, it actually pretty light). Pretty sure you could reduce length of the V12 by getting rid of the massive front drive / timing pulley unless it also acts as a balancer (spare wheel?) and possibly doing away with the twin distributers and run a wasted spark set-up.

OlberJ

08-02-2011, 21:23

/Wanders out to the Mk3 with a measuring tape....

Rosssco

08-02-2011, 21:42

Oh aye, much that set you back Rosssco?

KBZ box?

Olie, missed your post for some reason. I managed to get mine for £350! Which is pretty cheap considering it came with all the required bits other than the clutch / flywheel, and only has 15k on it.

No, I've got a JJF box (I think, something like that). I think the KBZ / KXP boxes are normally fitted to the TFSI engines, but the difference in these codes could be purely down to manufacturing location or engine / chassis figuration, not sure of its anything to do with physical gearbox differences.. They look externally identical from what I've seen. Who knows though!

Spook

08-02-2011, 22:19

I'd have a V12 Mk 2 in a flash if i could afford it.... what a dilema

Crafty

08-02-2011, 23:58

Hey Ross,

Thanks for pointing me here.

I'm shoving an S5 FSI V8 up the arse of a Porsche 356. The engine came with an OB4 attached (quattro 6sp), and I currently have an older 01X box bolted up to it. I'm thinking of using an OB1 like Ross has.

If anyone digs up info on box designations / ratios / TQ ratings please post up.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/1.jpg?t=1297209712

Crafty

09-02-2011, 00:21

So far, based on ebay searches, I know the following codes are in the 0B1 range

JJF
KXP
KBZ
LLV

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/27.jpg

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/28.jpg

cdwood2010

09-02-2011, 01:26

Nuts.

What are you thinking?

Oh, and I want one........

Chris.

Paul Woods

09-02-2011, 06:29

....and the coolest project car on the planet award goes to Crafty!... Jesus that's awesome, welcome to TB!

Crafty i've approved your posts (not sure why i had to do that? Maybe your member status?) and edited your posts so your double typing doesn't make you look like a madman, the Porsche is doing that job already :)

snowtigger

09-02-2011, 07:45

Hubba hubba WTF hahaha Porsche with an engine the right way round, this guy nuts but I love it fantastic swop carry on that man.

Have seen a twin turbo before fitted to a 356 out of a modern crashed 911 was pretty cool, but this is awesome ness personified and sacrilege loving it.

dgh938peg

09-02-2011, 08:14

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/1.jpg?t=1297209712

You may want to consider something a bit more "secure" for sitting on :icon_mrgreen:

Epic project!

Torero

09-02-2011, 09:59

Fook me that IS brutal :nuts:

ColleyV8

09-02-2011, 17:49

Hi Paul, new poster here but if you need any help with the V12 give me a shout, just rebuilt this, whist I am trying to find a 2GR got the MR2

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/44.jpg

Still deciding what to put in here, but if you can do it with the V12, maybe you will have a customer

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/45.jpg

Waiting with anticipation

Steve

pilotpete

09-02-2011, 17:59

Hope you're going to fit bigger wheels to the Porsche !:hidesbehi:

tripod23

09-02-2011, 18:07

i cant wait to see this v12 in the back of one of woodys mr2s , make no mistake i will be taking a trip to the woodsport shop once its a runner.....now paula get your hob nobs eaten and crack on pal

Paul Woods

09-02-2011, 18:21

Welcome aboard Colley! Bloody hell this thread is bringing some beasts out of the closet!

ColleyV8

09-02-2011, 18:39

No worries Paul, like I said, once you get your head around the v12, they aren't as intimidating as you think.

Have you seen the posts from a guy putting one in the Diable on Kitcentral, he found the easiest way to get the things to run without masses of wiring?, I f not I will try to dig it out.

Steve

Gouky

09-02-2011, 19:52

weak... I'm already working on a 540cubic inch motor: (8.85L)

http://www.frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0036.jpg

it's only 5 cylinders, but the noise should be fantastic!

Rosssco

09-02-2011, 20:05

Gouky, I don't think that would pass an MOT over here mate. I mean, the exhausts going to be too loud...:rozzer:

Gouky

09-02-2011, 20:08

I'm just throwing it together for the 24hours of lemons racing.

endurance racing with a motor from a WWII plane.... probably not the best idea i've ever had. but it should be fun!

Rosssco

09-02-2011, 20:27

You really want a Merlin V12! As in, a MAN's V12... :icon_lol:

Torero

09-02-2011, 20:38

I'm just throwing it together for the 24hours of lemons racing.

endurance racing with a motor from a WWII plane.... probably not the best idea i've ever had. but it should be fun!

Brilliant Marc, you say it as if it is something you do every day. :laugh2:

snowtigger

09-02-2011, 20:38

Spitfire supermarine supercharged for the win, some time I will get the delarge racer of my customer photographed v12 supercharged 1928 no seatbelts on skinny crossply racing tyres with 289bhp.

Paul Woods

09-02-2011, 20:59

LOL can i vote this thread the most brutal thread ever in the history of TB?

geoffmunt

09-02-2011, 21:37

Spitfire supermarine supercharged for the win, some time I will get the delarge racer of my customer photographed v12 supercharged 1928 no seatbelts on skinny crossply racing tyres with 289bhp.

Bit like this one:-

http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/old-car-info/rover-sd1-27-litre-v12.html :eek2:

snowtigger

09-02-2011, 21:52

The guy put it into a rolls Royce with a stretched front end, and rolls would not allow any publicity to call it a rolls.

Goldy

09-02-2011, 22:04

Bit like this one:-

http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/old-car-info/rover-sd1-27-litre-v12.html :eek2:

27 litre v12..... respect!

Gouky

09-02-2011, 22:14

you guys are insatiable. I figured 540cubic inches would be enough!

Rosssco

09-02-2011, 22:24

Bit like this one:-

http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/old-car-info/rover-sd1-27-litre-v12.html :eek2:

Bit of cabin intrusion there as well eh... :icon_lol: This thread's just got silly now...

Spook

10-02-2011, 08:43

Paul could you make it sound like this one, i think its the best V12 sound ive found yet -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4HCOCegOBY&feature=related

Yeah i know its, bigger, a race motor & barely street legal, I just love the sound of a V12 thats really going for it!

Paul Woods

10-02-2011, 18:44

That would be immense wouldn't it? I'd cry with joy if it sounded half as good.

OlberJ

10-02-2011, 19:01

They do make a nice bark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGMqG9IG2_s&feature=related

Rosssco

10-02-2011, 19:41

Groovy... Although (and I could be spouting the proverbial), flat plane V12 for the Lambo, cross plane for the Beemer... I prefer cross-planes from an aural point of view anyway...

snowtigger

10-02-2011, 19:50

flatplane cranks spin faster i think thats why racers like them so much, they yoused to knife edge cranks years ago but i havent heard a lot about them for ages.

dgh938peg

10-02-2011, 20:40

Pretty sure that knife edging a crankshaft's main purpose is to lighten & balance it. I struggle to understand why FP cranks can spin faster than CP ones?

A bit more gen here but still doesn't explain why they spin faster
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/53660-ever-wonder-why-ferrari-v8-sounds-completely-different-american-v8.html

Meh .... must be voodoo i guess! :icon_mrgreen:

Spook

11-02-2011, 08:23

I had always wondered what a flat plane crank was, so looked it up & before i got to wikipedia found this -
http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254956

seems to say that that a cross plane crank doesnt sound as good (to some peoples ears) has potential disadvantages in vibration & intake/exhaust pulse to be ironed out with piping, but potential advantages in grip & tyre wear.

Paul probably picked it for packaging reasons, availability and parts supply!
thanks lads, just listened to an engine I like & then really learned something there

OlberJ

11-02-2011, 09:33

Aurally, nothing beats a flat plane crank. It's like having 2 engines running in perfect syncopation, sounds great.

But then i'm sure Paul will disagree as i seem to remember him not liking the sound of a Murci Roadster at full pelt!

Aware

11-02-2011, 09:35

Knife edging a crank is done for one reason(you could lighten it in other ways, without knife-edging)...when done correctly, the crank will move through it's lubricating oil(regardless of sump-type) with VASTLY reduced drag(which is of course, parasitic)...strain on the piece goes down, and output forces go up(all others are unaffected)...that's rpms and power, for the laymen... :thumbsup:

dgh938peg

11-02-2011, 09:38

Ah - i see so it cuts down on "drag" effectively :)

Aware

11-02-2011, 09:41

Yus indeed...proper, old skool engineering - how to build a decent bottom end, part #1,498... :icon_mrgreen:

Paul Woods

14-02-2011, 19:41

The V12 has landed so let the games begin! We got to work sorting some fundamentals of the swap, now ignore the grot on this engine, we aren't bothered about that for the time being, this engine is being used as a test mule to make everything from. When the time comes for it to run we will strip it and rebuild it, but until then it only has to be dimensionally right.

First issue we found was the throttle bodies were facing the wrong way, well wrong for an Mr2 engine bay, so luckily for us we found that BMW have made the plenums symmetrical, not only that but they have unboltable ends, meaning you can bolt the throttle bodies on the other end of the plenum and the cover plates on the throttle end.... how cool is that? So we will have that Lambo'esque twin air filters shooting rearwards in the engine bay.

Here's the blanking plates fitted to the normally throttled end...

http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/212.jpg

Here you can see the Tb fitted to the normally blanked end (yellow)... tp fit the other side i need to move the oil filler spout, no biggy.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/84.jpg

Work then began on making this leviathan shorter, it's too long at the moment, much as i like sitting close to the windscreen i'd prefer not to have my nose squashed against it. This meant ditching the distributors, a good 2 inches saved here.....

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/85.jpg

We aren't bothered about how far forward the crank pulley sits, that's in the tunnel so it can please itself.

Lastly we will need to make blanking plates for the distributor holes...

http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2011/02/213.jpg

I've also go a plan to ditch the water pump and run an electric remote one.

Spook

14-02-2011, 22:38

ooooh those intakes will look nice!

Goldy

14-02-2011, 23:31

Raaahhh V12 power!!! Looks damm cool having 12 cylinders! Just a thought, does this mean the supra twin turbo straight 6 might fit in a mk2???

P.S.... Don't forget to finish the V8!!!

Paul Woods

15-02-2011, 06:30

Paul Woods

15-02-2011, 07:47

Also i've decided for simplicity and economy i am going to run this engine purely on LPG, so i can do away with the entire fuel system, that means i can junk...

Petrol tank, so no shortening work needed, it can just go.
All fuel lines
Injectors
No sensors at all need wiring on the engine, i'll just run a dual closed loop lambda controlled set up with two mixers, one feeding each bank, or if the budget allows two full 6 cylinder sequential LPG kits, that's costly though.

So all i need to work on is sparks, a Vems firing two EDIS 6 coilpacks looks favourite at the minute, or a Megajolt, needs more research.

dgh938peg

15-02-2011, 08:22

Just thinking Paul..... Not sure you can do that mate - pretty sure you need to start a car on fuel then switch over to LPG for running .... Some know it all at work mentioned it to me when we were discussing the merits of me buying an Audi S8 the other day. What i am saying is i might not be right!

Paul Woods

15-02-2011, 10:36

Yeah I'm a qualified LPG installer too danski and you can easily start an engine on gas, it's just not considered the correct way. I've manually started all of my LPG cars on gas before.... I might add a pair of cold start injectors with a tiny fuel cell for a bit of cold enrichment.

dgh938peg

15-02-2011, 10:37

I seem to post this every day..... "Every day's a school day"

So .... how much to whap LPG on an S8 ..... W reg / 2000. just out of curiosity ;)

PaulM

15-02-2011, 11:13

nutter ! :)

Spook

15-02-2011, 12:18

very interesting solution, show car = no need to worry about running out of petrol.. would be interested to see what power/torque & economy you actually get when complete, mmmmm

Paul Woods

15-02-2011, 18:41

Dan the S8 would need a fully sequential direct injection system, same kit i had fitted to my Bmw 325, all fully mappable but the biggest issue is keeping the stock ECU happy (they tend to throw a fit when one knocks the petrol injectors off on purpose!).... so it would need a top end kit, probably in the region of £900 for the kit and a weeks installation labour.

You will get a better deal at the big companies that specialize in LPG fitting everyday, they do package turnkey prices, much like we do with the engine swaps.

ag86IL

16-02-2011, 00:25

Paul, have you ever put LPG on the 4a?

Paul Woods

16-02-2011, 06:21

Yes i have! I ran a Mk1 on LPG very successfully... here is a write up i did on it back in 2000 i think it was, i'm the bloke with no eyes on the right.

http://www.mr2mk1club.com/LPG.html

Aware

17-02-2011, 00:22

Lol Paul, I recognise the postie on the left, too...damn, I need to get up there to you guys!! :icon_redface:

rjevans

17-02-2011, 21:49

It might Goldy, this engine is 29" long from bellhousing to pulley face, that's long! I can get the critical top of engine measurement down to around 26" i think, which gives me space to get the driveshafts in line.

Anyone know the length of the 2jz?

865x700x675 and thats in mm's
I dont know what is length, width or height lol, but looking at the numbers, that seems to be the order...

Ohh and before you ask, thats a 2JZ-GTE with a 6 speed manual.
The auto is 830x705x675

Now that is a conversion I would die for. I saw V12 MK2 Thread, and thought in that case, technically the straight 6 should fit too?

Want a donor car? lol. Hell, I will come and work for you for free for the conversion lol. based on very low salary of 20k a year, say 80k for the conversion and extra mods.... 4 years labour? lol When do I start? lmao.

Nod

20-02-2011, 15:22

This is such a novel conversion I can't believe I never thought of doing it myself :icon_rolleyes:

Still, best of luck with it Paul, at least I'll have someone else's write up to copy :icon_biggrin:

Paul Woods

20-02-2011, 15:30

I remember you talking about V12'ing an Mr2 a few times before Lyndon, the idea has been out there for quite a while so i thought it was time to grab the bull by the horns and have a go!

Nod

20-02-2011, 18:03

I remember you talking about V12'ing an Mr2 a few times before Lyndon, the idea has been out there for quite a while so i thought it was time to grab the bull by the horns and have a go!

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?17014-Nod-s-SW20-Project-!

You may find the info in this thread of some use.

Nod

20-02-2011, 18:19

and this one.

http://bmwe32.masscom.net/sean750/engineRebuildM70/M70rebuild_1.htm

Leak down your new v12 engine. They are notorious for oval bores and you can neither hone or bore them due to the pistons running direct on silicon etched alloy bores. 12 Darton sleeves would be quite expensive and there are about 2 people in the usa who can do it to that engine.

http://www.v12diablo.co.uk/resources/BMW%20V12%20Using%20OEM%20ECU%27s.pdf

http://www.e38.org/e32/M70info.pdf

A few more from all the research I did 12 months ago.

Paul Woods

20-02-2011, 18:28

Ah i see you were planning 4WD? I'm not going for anything that ambitious, just RWD.

That second link is excellent, lots of good info there, thanks for that mate.

podge

24-02-2011, 09:27

way to go fella cant wait to see this one all the best podge

attackoftheeddiemunster

24-02-2011, 14:10

Ah i see you were planning 4WD? I'm not going for anything that ambitious, just RWD.

Yeah, because a V8 in a Mk1 and a V12 in a Mk2 isn't in the least bit ambitious!?!?!? :-)

4wd is the way to go, I'm sure I can coax you into trying that: a friend made a 4wd Punto using an Integrale as the base, all of which he did in his garage, so I'm sure you'd be able to do something similar.

snowtigger

24-02-2011, 14:49

OlberJ

07-03-2011, 10:18

http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=print&thread=68455

Sounds rather wild!

Paul Woods

07-03-2011, 19:04

"One" of my Audi A5 gearboxes arrived today, all your fault Ross, i'm buying them in bulk!

The great news is this box weighs a lot less than my A4 box in my Mk1, i wish this had been around when i was doing that project, i reckon it's a good 20kgs lighter. The first thing that's very apparent is the diff area, i am going to have to remove engine block material in this area on the V12 (V8 looks like it will need modifying too), but it shouldn't be a huge problem.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/36.jpg

Some dimensions for the tranny whores...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/37.jpg

Oops! wrong link! That'll teach me for typing tranny whore into google :)

The middle of the output shafts are 45mm from the bellhousing face, now i have estimated i will need a 1" thick adapter plate on the V12, but the shafts sit 7" further forward on this box than the older A4 unit, so by my maths i am gaining 4.25" of space by using this gearbox, that's a huge amount. It also means on a V8 swap i gain 5.25", that definately puts the Audi V8 inside the engine bay without having to cut the front wall (at least at the bottom of it and should only need a top access panel if that)

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/38.jpg

So, so far it's all good news, although there is a very long way to go.

OlberJ

07-03-2011, 19:10

Crikey, that really is as far forward as possible! Bravo Audi.

1 last dimension if you please, the width between driveshaft flanges. Tar.

Paul Woods

07-03-2011, 19:18

Well i does throw up other issues being that far forward, the flywheel/transmission plate arrangement is a nightmare, the shaft actually goes through the flywheel assembly. Audi did this to move the front axle forward on the A4/A5 to counteract the understeer issue they had, but according to Clarkson they failed.... still we get the bonus side effect!

Can you elaborate on that dimension you want mate? I'm a little confused, do you want the distance from one driveshaft mounting flange to the other?

snowtigger

07-03-2011, 19:19

so in the mk1 not as much chassis intrusion then?

maybe a 6 footer could fit in.

Paul Woods

07-03-2011, 19:20

I don't think there would be ANY intrusion mate, not where it mattered anyway, i really wish this box had been around when i was doing mine, too late now!

snowtigger

07-03-2011, 19:25

thats worth knowing, and paul you could always modify your mk1 ? wait forget i said that otherwise it will be next year you finish.

Paul Woods

07-03-2011, 19:36

No mate, to fit that gearbox into my Mk1 would mean redoing every part of the conversion.

OlberJ

07-03-2011, 20:24

Aye, trying to guage just how much the subframe would need shifted about to get this to fit.

The rear tie link mounting pointss on the subframe are awfy close together on the Mk2 so what you thinking there?

On the Mk1, you'd maybe be able to get the box in without moving the triangles?

Paul Woods

08-03-2011, 06:48

The gearbox will sit over the top of it with a channel cut out of the subframe and reinforced underneath it, and Mk2 subframes come in two types with the pivot points close together and far apart, i'll be using the far apart subframe.

On my Mk1 i didn't need to move my triangles at all, it all fitted as stock, it was just the crossmember on the chassis i needed to chop out, take a look at my build thread you will see what i mean.

OlberJ

08-03-2011, 10:38

Ah, didn't realise it would sit that high on the Mk2. Excellent.

attackoftheeddiemunster

08-03-2011, 10:58

Best lambo and Ferrari are all rwd, 4 wd is a waste of weight time money and expense it's doable cause nods already thought through all the problems.

Any twonk can stick a floor pan of another car under Neath if you get your measurements right, that way Paul could put a scooby under it but it would no longer be mid engined.

What utter nonsense: you're suggesting that it's easier for a "twonk" to stitch another floorpan onto another car, to make it 4wd, than it is to transplant an engine alone. In RWD format, the V8 Audi engine that Paul has used won't be able to deliver anywhere near it's full potential on the tarmac.

snowtigger

08-03-2011, 14:07

What utter nonsense: you're suggesting that it's easier for a "twonk" to stitch another floorpan onto another car, to make it 4wd, than it is to transplant an engine alone. In RWD format, the V8 Audi engine that Paul has used won't be able to deliver anywhere near it's full potential on the tarmac.

First off have you ever watched Bangalore bangers or the English garage on discovery were they stuck a Subaru floorpan under a mk1 golf, they used a laser aligned system to fit it all in.
But it looked nothing like a golf in the end and did go like the clapers which it should do as less weight and more power.
Drive train loss though will take 17 to 25% of that power plus the extra weight of a rear diff prop shafts and transfer box, so why did lambo build the balbony drivers car special with only rear wheel drive when the 4x4 was faster, because it makes it a better drivers car.
And also let me think, 288gto, gt40,f40, miura,stratos can anybody think of some more?

And I think pauls v8 and my 2gr in the future supercharged v6 may never get all our power down, but that's not the frigging point we have done it cause we can to prove a point, like the v12 in the mk2 or 4x4 a mr2 we do these things because people say it can't be done, and our huge grins as we fire up our mid engined mr2 mk1s we may not be the most powerful or tractable cars but by god we will have some fun driving them.
Were as moaners can eat my rubber and go suck my fumes.

dgh938peg

08-03-2011, 14:18

Thought i'd let you have your say first Tiggs..

Eddie Munster clearly hasn't understood the TwoB ethos as yet ;) ..... We'll make a convert out of him yet lol!

Gimme a stupidly high powered RWD over 4WD for back lane fun any day of the week!!! Having had several moderately powerful 4WD cars and driven others i'd much sooner have the RWD. The only time i'd want 4wd over rwd is for offroading or dirt rally .... now ... seeing as my two never sees even a slightly damp field i needn't worry. Answer this Munster... Back in the 80's Ford made the RS500 (RWD) with the particulars of demolishing BMW at Brit Touring Car ... which it did. Then when the 2 door cossie ceased they specifically made the Sapphire Cossie in RWD for homologation rules IIRC. Why - if 4WD is better did they not just use the 4WD sapphy cossie if it's soo much better.....

RWD me all the way with my balls on fire going backwards off a cliff .... at least with oversteer i wont see what's gonna kill me! :D

snowtigger

08-03-2011, 17:05

To add to that peg I have had a mk1 rs500 cossie then a 4x4 v6, rs8 Australian mk1 v8 sierra stupid power, but my fav was the lotus Carlton straight six with 3.4 litre conversion 600bhp but as you say tail sliding over a hedge backwards is so much fun lol, 4x4 should stick to landrovers and rally cars how many new lambo and Ferrari 4x4 are going to be going cross country or track days, don't get me wrong if some one wants to fit a 4x4 system to an mr2 good on em I love people who do weird and experiMENTAL stuff to cars.

Just wait till you see the idea I have cooked up if all goes to plan after the house move, some one was selling a second hand jet engine out of a helicopter 385bhp and lite weight, dam did I type that out loud.

stevehall

08-03-2011, 17:40

Eddie Munster clearly hasn't understood the TwoB ethos as yet ;)

He's a lot closer than some of my friends, I said I was building a 4WD Audi V8 Celica, 360bhp, my friend just didn't get it, "you could get 360bhp out of 2.0 Turbo".
I love the stuff that gets built on in this forum, not just chasing numbers, well, I suppose we're just chasing cylinder numbers over bhp, but the projects are so much better reading than just putting bigger turbos on some little 4 pot.

Paul Woods

08-03-2011, 19:02

I love the stuff that gets built on in this forum, not just chasing numbers, well, I suppose we're just chasing cylinder numbers over bhp, but the projects are so much better reading than just putting bigger turbos on some little 4 pot.

Amen!

dgh938peg

08-03-2011, 20:07

..... the projects are so much better reading than just putting bigger turbos on some little 4 pot.

Totally agree steve!

Done that, got bored, never drove it, now breaking the engine to replace it with a 3uzfe!!!!

Paul Woods

15-03-2011, 19:38

The project kicked off today with the start of the adapter plate making, this is what 25mm thick 400 x 400 alloy looks like....

http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/204.jpg

I marked the centre of where the crank is going to be...

http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/205.jpg

On the V12 there are two raised areas on the back of the engine, one is the crank oil seal housing and the other is a water jacket blanking plate, i have removed the water jacket plate and oil seal housing in this pic...

http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/206.jpg

The plan is to cut a hole where the crank seal housing sits...

http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/207.jpg

Then we will make the adapter plate do the job of the coolant cover plate, so it has dual roles, this will just mean drilling through the cover plate to get the position right...

http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/208.jpg

For now though i'll be sending the plate down to Adam to have the basic holes cut in it.

Nod

16-03-2011, 18:14

That billet must have cost you about £600 :-o

This is why I chose to use the gearbox what came with the engine. I was going to use the 5 speed zf that comes with the M73 v12 on mine to save me a lot of grief. But then the z drive/transfer box is £1000 so swings and round abouts.

The 2JZ is 28.5" so food for thought ;-)

dgh938peg

16-03-2011, 18:35

Crikey I hope not! I got a quote from Aalco for £105.

Nod

17-03-2011, 16:31

Crikey I hope not! I got a quote from Aalco for £105.

I guess it's just cheap ali plate then, not high quaility billet. What grade is it?

Rogue used to make the adaptors out of hard wood and then get them CNC machined by Andy around the corner. I guess now they've moved off site and Tony no longer works there they no longer do this sort of thing :-)

dgh938peg

17-03-2011, 16:33

That was for 6061 from what i remember.

Tho now am working on a 2x 1/2" plate method that i can waterjet and weld ;)

A lump of 25 think stainless 400mm square ain't 600 notes Nod...?

Paul Woods

17-03-2011, 18:24

This plate i'm using is 6061.

Nod

23-03-2011, 11:11

This plate i'm using is 6061.

That explains why it's not £600, i hope you don't need to weld it. :D

dgh938peg

23-03-2011, 11:15

Sorry Nod - you've lost me there.

We work with and weld aircraft grade T6061 Aluminium at work. I struggle to see where Paul will have issue - not that he needs to weld it as it'll be machined one solid.

Paul Woods

23-03-2011, 18:44

Lyndon i don't need to weld it at all, just cut it, drill some holes, insert some helicoils here and there, that sort of thing.

Today i got an OB1 starter motor (very hard to find!) and worked out how that is going to fit in around the V12, things are tight! Very tight.... but if i grind away enough of the block castings around the starter it will fit by 3mm without thinning the walls of the block itself. This was a make or break situation for the project, the whole thing would need a major rethink if this starter did not fit on the engine side of the gearbox, but it will.... JUST!

This is a library pic to show you the area that needs removing, this will also allow the OB1 Diff to clear the block too.

http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/216.jpg

Paul Woods

23-03-2011, 19:00

A guy on Imoc appears to be certifiably crazier than i am, based on nothing more than my presumption the V12 will fit he has gone out, bought a V12, opened his car with a grinder and made it sit where it needs to go..... I'm making him an adapter plate as well and guiding him through the build, but check this fecker out....

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/156.jpg

I need to get this guy across here pronto, he's definately TB material lol

Goldy

23-03-2011, 19:32

Nutbar!!! What a leg-end, u deffo need to get it him on here, does that mean you're not going ahead with the V12 MK2 now?

Paul Woods

23-03-2011, 19:39

No not at all matey, this guy is relying on my build to finish his own, i'm making his adapter plate etc... he's just dived in from a different direction, i prefer to make engine fit gearbox first then dummy fit the whole lot.

So it's a case of you wait all day for one to come along then two do! :)

snowtigger

23-03-2011, 20:05

Leg end build this is get him over here pronto tonto , see mr w your an inspiration to people or did I just insult you?

dgh938peg

23-03-2011, 23:29

It's all your fault Paul! So on your say of I think it'll work - somebodyhas cut up a mk2??!! That's brutal for sure!

37831999

24-03-2011, 20:47

Hi guys! I'm here finially managed to get in, doing everything on iPhone and it's not easy lol so you lot like the pic? Paul this is the best idea ever!

Garbe

24-03-2011, 22:14

Welcome to the nuthouse. Can't believe that there's now two v12 builds going, fantastic. You need to get your own build thread started.

37831999

25-03-2011, 07:41

Tried twice but it doesn't come up???? :-(

Paul Woods

25-03-2011, 07:44

For some reason it needed moderator approval, which i've now done mate, your thread is active.

stevehall

25-03-2011, 10:34

Twobrutal has really reached another level this year, there's now so may V8 builds going on I can't name every swap of the top of my head (used to be AEK, Lilly & Podge), and now two V12 swaps!. We're running out of engines, what's going to be the next swap? Tank engine http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?threadid=332316

37831999

25-03-2011, 11:45

I see a w16 but Couldn't afford it lol probably an easier build too lol

Garbe

26-03-2011, 23:47

I see a w16 but Couldn't afford it lol probably an easier build too lol

I'd definitely leave that in the Veyron, maybe one from a Bentley, fat lardy cars.

37831999

19-08-2011, 20:13

Painting of the block tonight! Hope the colour cones out ok, I know it only black but hey ho lol

37831999

21-08-2011, 22:50

N/S engine finally ground off, tidied the cavity I made in the cockpit lol. Front bumper coming off the charger coolers rad and fuel tank preparations has started! Project is definitely back up and going!

rjevans

01-09-2011, 12:34

Any news on this paul? new pics or anything? I have been watching closely in the background since u had my old MK2. Im after another now lmao. a tubby.

dgh938peg

16-11-2011, 14:51

Found this the other day.... just for shits & giggles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0nHx-yKmPk&feature=fvwrel

I knew the Muira was mounted this way round but didn't know the gearcase was configured as such!
Pretty compact install as v12's go.... AND i reckon that'd drop straight in a mk2 bay....... if you could get one lol!

In any case... is it running yet big man! :rofl:

AlunJ

16-11-2011, 16:26

Wow... that is a fairly interesting gearbox layout. Would love to see some pics of the internals to see how they're taking the drive off the engine.

Google, here I come!

dgh938peg

16-11-2011, 16:30

I think ... from looking at the vid, you have clutch and flywheel (big black spinny thing) on passenger side. Also contained in here is a gear assembly to drive the gearbox. That's the alloy lump between the flywheel & diff housing. So yes indeedie a superbly compact layout :)

dgh938peg

16-11-2011, 16:38

First thing to remember is this car was built by tractorboys so gearing would be the way out of anything ;)

and here in my best freehand sketchy-poos!
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/11/95.jpg

AlunJ

16-11-2011, 23:37

That makes sense. I was thinking the black spinny bit was the clutch lol :eusa_wall:

Michael20

10-01-2012, 14:47

Any news on this Project?

Paul Woods

10-01-2012, 19:36

I've had to put this on hold for the time being while we complete our outstanding jobs and finish off a few personal projects.

Tommytank

10-01-2012, 21:22

This is nuts... i look forward to seeing it finished! However, i also have some ideas for the next bout of insanity.... an engine that makes the veyron sound like a Ford Pop plus...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjW-rybCWn0&feature=related

Deltic?

Must be easy enough to source/fit. Bet you a hobnob....

guitariste47

10-01-2012, 21:38

That was such crazy/funny videon !!

Thanks for that

splintermcinnes

21-03-2012, 18:22

Holy bejebus this place has come on leaps and bounds since my 3VZ conversion all those years ago (number 15 i think).

A bloody V12 in a Mk2, that is mental!! so, can i have one!! hahaha!!

Need another two in my life, but this is outa my leauge for now. Might look at turbo or V6 for now.

Congrats Paul, epic project!!

cdwood2010

21-03-2012, 18:49

Hello!

Number 15 eh!? Let's see some pics of this then!

:)

C.

splintermcinnes

21-03-2012, 23:08

Was many many moons agon now. Sold her to barronMR on IMOC and he spun the rod bearings at 120 on the motorway!! she has been sat for a few years being robbed for parts, looked a right sorry state, she was in a for sale add on imoc for a part. She's covered in mud and alot of my nice expensive bits are gone, but one upon a time she was awesome!! At her time when i modded it i think she was the most powerfull NA V6 in a Mk2. but that changed quickly as the 2GR swaps started happening!

Just checked photobucket and all my MR2 pics are gone, must of deleted them. should be in my build thread the ones that paul took when she was being done. Mine the first one to roll out his new premesis i think. Aaaah memories!! haha.