Just been told i need CAT test on 1993 Engine

[Steve-x-edge]

I read around here for a bit concerning CAT tests before i went into doing the conversion, I went ahead with the conversion knowing, if the engine is Pre 1994 it wouldn't need a CAT test.

Well i've just had a call, and i need a CAT test! My engine is a 1993!

I rang VOSA to double check and they say the test was bought in, in 1 Aug 1992. So what now?! Wholes exhaust system including CAT i take it, another hic up to stop me getting on the road!

Need your help!

Thanks, Steve

[Lee]

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?13128-V6-s-and-MOT.-What-s-the-score/page3&highlight=catalytic+converters

Basically they are not reading the flow chart right. Your car wether import or not is pre95 so subject to a non-CAT test. Unfortunately the muppets don't seem to be just on the shop floor, they are in the upper echelons of the VOSA mothership

edit- Your engine is pre 95, but not sure about your car?

The onus is on you to prove it's a pre 95 engine if your car is a newer Mk2 model. How you go about that I have no idea.

edit, edit- take it to another MOT place who understand the system

[Steve-x-edge]

I gave them the engine number to prove its a 1993 engine. The car is 1995. Going to read through the thread now.

Steve

[Lee]

Way I read this flowchart:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/7.3%20Emmissions%20-%20Spark%20Ignition%20-%20Passenger%20Cars%201992-2002.pdf

If it's after Aug 95 it would require a CAT test to the default limits as still no exact match can be found.

However it states vehicle' not engine or shell whichever is the older......................maybe that's where the ambiguity lies?

[Jiff Lemon]

What year is the vehicle?

[Steve-x-edge]

Thanks fo that Lee! I let them know, and all is good. No test require. Only failed on wiper blade and bulbs. Not bad considering it's been sat 1.7 years!

Thanks again!

While we're here though. How do I go about taxing the car?

Steve

[loadswine]

Well done Steve. Good solid info to back you up, that's what TB's about. :thumbsup:

[antnkel]

Can we sticky this as it seems to come up alot.

[Steve-x-edge]

I was going to suggest that antnkel.

Definitely worth a sticky.

Steve

[cdwood2010]

Hello peeps,

We have just been told by the MOT garage that the V6 we bought from Rowdan needs a cat!

Pat is trying to argue it with them, but they are doing the "computer says no " thing.

Any advice on making them see sense (without a punch up?)

Chris.

[snowtigger]

Goes of age of car not age of engine pre cat equals no cat test, tell em to read the vosa rules, if there is no data for a 3litre mr2 v6 in the system they go of age of car ffs.

I will text my mates to get clarification I know after talking in the pub to George my mot tester I don't have to have a cat test even though my car engine would probably ace what the old 4age chucked out.

[cdwood2010]

fanx darling!

I found a PDF flowchart, emailed it to Pat. The MOT garage are quite sympathetic, so he likes to stay friends.

Anyything that will help us gently re-educate the chappy would be appreciated.

Welsh people eh, they just wont have it sometimes!!!

:icon_mrgreen:

Chris.

[Limeymk1]

Cassi had issues with her decatted J-reg Mk2 (3sge) import, the garage failed it for not passing the cat emissions test. They quoted that any car from August (I think) 1992 needs to have a cat fitted. Fortunately after a phone call to Toyota we got a print out that stated the car was manufactured in March 1992.

Seems like there's a lot of discrepancy between MoT testers.

[Limeymk1]

Hmmmmm, from here:

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/bl/mottestingmanualsandguides/mottestingmanualsandguides.htm


Vehicles fitted with a different engine: Test according to which is older, engine or vehicle. e.g. A 1995 car fitted with a 1991 engine (of whatever make), test to 1991 standards for emission purposes. Note: The onus is on the vehicle presenter to prove engine age.


The catalyst test is part of the MOT test for most spark ignition petrol engined vehicles with four or more wheels first used on and after 1 August 1992

[snowtigger]

Two of my mates are mot testers and both hate how the mot testing is going it's a complete farce nowadays, like my arches if an arch trim is bolted to the arch there not allowed to take it off even though it could be held on by a ton of rust and bondo they can't touch it, it used to be the bang with a screwdriver see if there's any holes or rot but they can only look now.
He showed me the book they have to study and nearly every month Theres new legislation added that contradicts previous stuff.

And as soon as you leave mot station the only thing the paper is worth is to show on that day on that time in the mot station every thing was ok, but if your wheel falls off twenty yards down the road it's not there fault it's all this acceptable wear bollocks.

[wood_patrick]

Gonna phone the garage in the morning, and tell them to RTFM!

Muppets. The guy that did the MOT test (Not dealt with that specific guy before, although dealt with garage lots in past without problems) actually said "someones messed with the engine" - You dont say! (Not what I said really, but felt like it....) Lol.

Im hoping that between all the info on the threads on here Ive found (Thanks to the many TB'ers!), I can tell him how to do his job properly in a polite way. :-)

[Jiff Lemon]

With a decatted car it's a little different - Its not whether or not a cat is fitted, but whether it meets the emission requirements.

The vosa flow chart really is quite simple to follow, but having been a tester who did nothing other than test 8 hours a day, 6 days a week, I used to know every single rule and regulation and it's interpretation to nth degree!

The important bits to note are:

Vehicle first used between 1 August '92 and 31 July '95: Can you find an exact match in the analyser database or the In-Service Emissions book?

As Tig has mentioned, a V6 MR2 simply does not exist in either; so you shouldn't even NEED to start producing proof of engine age. You simply get a normal pre '92 emission test.

Vehicle first used between 1 August 1995 and 31 August 2002:Can you find an exact match in the analyser database or the In-Service Emissions book?

Again, Our V6 MR2's still don't appear in either, however, now the "no" response leads us to a default cat test, using fairly broad limits. THIS is where proof of engine age comes into the equation. If you can prove that the engine is from an earlier vintage, they need to test to that age.

Your stumbling block could come about when you say it came from a '93 camry.... as a '93 camry WILL be listed and WILL have Cat values to meet. A '91 camry, of course, would have no such limits :icon_wink:

[snowtigger]

YOU GET THE SUBTLE HINT, that some one said about YEAR of engine lol.

I was talking while drunk on Friday about fault codes and that if the engine light was on he would have to fail it, I said "its not wired in so it won't ever come on" my mate being very dry wit said "I never heard what you just said" cough cough.

[Lee]

How do i stand with my emissions then?

It's a 97 car with a 2008 2GR-FE in it. However it was sourced from a Toyota Highlander. A car only available in the US. i'm hoping a default CAt limits test :praysmiley:

[Rowdan]

From what Patrick told me, the MOT tester was even confused to the age of the car...claiming it was a 1998 model and the K reg must be a private plate :icon_confused:. The car was imported and first registered as a turbo in 1998 but year of manufacture 1992. It has never had a catalytic converter fitted and I have never had any problems with the emissions test either before or since V6 conversion. The guy must be new to the job :icon_biggrin:. Good luck with educating him :icon_wink:

[Jiff Lemon]

How do i stand with my emissions then?

It's a 97 car with a 2008 2GR-FE in it. However it was sourced from a Toyota Highlander. A car only available in the US. i'm hoping a default CAt limits test :praysmiley:

Follow the flow chart:
Vehicle first used between 1 August 1995 and 31 August 2002:Can you find an exact match in the analyser database or the In-Service Emissions book?

So a 2gr-engined MR2 doesn't exist anywhere. Therefore, they'll have to carry out a CAT test using default limits.

Simples :)

[Lee]

Nice one, at least I know I can go to the MOTer fully armed :smile:

Thanks Jiff :thumbsup:

[cdwood2010]

From what Patrick told me, the MOT tester was even confused to the age of the car...claiming it was a 1998 model and the K reg must be a private plate :icon_confused:. The car was imported and first registered as a turbo in 1998 but year of manufacture 1992. It has never had a catalytic converter fitted and I have never had any problems with the emissions test either before or since V6 conversion. The guy must be new to the job :icon_biggrin:. Good luck with educating him :icon_wink:

Hi Rowdan,

Yes, this wasn't the usual tester that pat sees at his local garage, (and you know how Welsh people like to dig their heels in! ;) )

I've told pat to try keep him onside, so he is going back down there before the retest with some documented proof / laptop in hand.

It will be interesting to see where this ends up!

Chris.


Sent from <insert stupid location>

[snowtigger]

Let us know how he gets on my mate has printed off the section that's dealing with it should pick it up on Saturday, his advice was what Evers older engine or car then that should be tested to that standard so if its a pre cat car then no cat test as a basic rule of thumb, but as I said before all this bollox is changing next year and he will update me when it does.

but what he's heard on the grape vine is if the engine was fitted in a car that had cats when it was made then irrespective of the recipent cars age the engine if newer goes into that car should have cats as well retro fitted to comply with the engines year of manufacture, so we all may get away with our conversions now but any new ones next year may all have to have cats fitted when the conversion is carried out.

[snowtigger]

Right just got the page every one needs 7.3 exhaust emissions-spark ignition-general.http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/07/91.jpg

I will photo copy the whole page and upload later, the interesting parts are at the beginning.

Vehicles fitted with modified engines.

If an engine has been modified in any way, it still has to meet the exhaust emission requirements according to the age of the vehicle.

And the test according to which is older, engine or vehicle.

E.g. A 1995 car fitted with a 1991 engine ( of whatever make), test to 1991 standards for emission purposes.

Note the onus is on the vehicle presenter to prove engine age.

[cdwood2010]

Tiggs,

Top stuff, thanks for that!

That means my 2004 import (1992) will test as a non cat with a swapped engine?

Also Pat managed to explain to the MOT guy that Rowdans old V6 does not need a cat test. He showed him the chart on the MOT station wall!

Chris.

Sent from somewhere else......

[wood_patrick]

Just a quick heads up with my emmissions fiasco...

Spent some time getting my head round everything with the emmissions so I could go back down and diplomatically put them straight. I went back down to the garage, explained how & why no CAT test, and boss said ok.

This was a little more complicated than just general CAT arguement, as the logbook showed first registration at 1998 (Import from Japan) but it was a K Plate. When the MOT first phoned me up to say it had failed he thought it was a private plate as had a K reg plate, but showed as 1998 registered. Explained that it was an import, but he needed to a) see something to prove age & b) prove it didnt have to be CAT tested. When I went back down, I had a letter in with the car documents that was from DVLA confirmed it was IMPORTED in 1998, but actually first used in mid 1993.

As such (as above threads) if a car was first used between 1 August '92 and 31 July '95 and fails emmissions, then the tester has to find an exact match for the car and engine. Because they cant find that (as it never existed) then they revert to a non-CAT test. As a backup, if they still argue, then from what I understand because it started life as an import turbo, they *shouldn't* be able to find the original match (i.e. chassis and engine) on their database anyway so in any scenario it shouldnt need a cat test. (Based on it being manf in 1993)

Once the MOT is sorted, I am going to try get the year of registration changed on the logbook to 1993 (or get them to show it as first registered in 1998 and manufactured in 1993 (In Japan)) which then should prevent any issues for future owners irrelevant of what engine is in there as the original engine was non-CAT tested anyway. Im guessing this solution though is dependant on the new changes that come into play next year with the emmissions.

Finally, with the new regs that are apparently coming into play next year with the CAT test being dependant on the engine, I have a liability to inform the DVLA about an engine change but if I dont know where the engine came from (lets assume I bought it on ebay....) then I have carried out my duties to the best of my ability in as much as informing them of the engine change. If I dont know where the engine came from, then I dont know then they cant stipulate the CAT test. Think any Camrys/ES300s in the future will be getting registed in mates names....... ;-)

[wood_patrick]

Bro,

If you do an engine change, you will need something to PROVE it was first used/manufactured in 1992. Check the logbook. It may say first registration in 2004 meaning they will do a cat test. It may state on the V5 that Reg'd in 2004 (MAnufactured in 1992) which *should* be fine, but if it doesnt state that on V5 then without proof of actual age will be a CAT test. Best to write to DVLA and ask for something in writing to confirm year of first use/manufacture.

I think thats the reason your car has a CAT that has been fitted aftermarket. Write to DVLA, get confirmation of manf date and confirmation that DOESN'T need CAT test, and keep it for use after engine conversion....... ;-)


Tiggs,

Top stuff, thanks for that!

That means my 2004 import (1992) will test as a non cat with a swapped engine?

Also Pat managed to explain to the MOT guy that Rowdans old V6 does not need a cat test. He showed him the chart on the MOT station wall!

Chris.

Sent from somewhere else......

[Rowdan]

When I went back down, I had a letter in with the car documents that was from DVLA confirmed it was IMPORTED in 1998, but actually first used in mid 1993.

Good job I am a dreadful hoarder, as that folder is what I was given when I bought it, I went through it but didn't consider any of it would ever be usefull :-)

[Moffmo]

Where would I stand with this?

I'll be putting in a 3VZ-FE which as far as I know is 1992-1996. The car however is a 1999.

I also have no idea how you would prove the age of the engine?

so either way I'm probably going to need a CAT? :-(

[Torero]

Where would I stand with this?

I'll be putting in a 3VZ-FE which as far as I know is 1992-1996. The car however is a 1999.

I also have no idea how you would prove the age of the engine?

so either way I'm probably going to need a CAT? :-(Register the engine change on your V60, that way it'll show up when your tester checks the cars details to register the test online.

If it's a 3VZ-FE it only goes to '96 so it will be exempt and this should be on the testers details. I only know as myself and Chris worked until 5am to fit a cat to mine before my test the next day only to be told I didn't need one. :icon_rolleyes:

If you need any further advice drop Pat (Headcase) a PM as he's a qualified MOT Tester and can confirm for you.

[wood_patrick]

Howdy!

Assuming yours has a CAT now and likely the donor engine will probably have (or will have had) a CAT so you will likely need a CAT for MOT.

That said, fabricating a bypass pipe so that you can swap for MOT isn't that hard anyway and may save hassle with the lovely MOT station anyway rather than arguing it....

[Les85]

I'm in the same situation as I'm putting a 3vzfe in a 98 car so I'm going to try and fabricate the exhaust to the na system and still use the original cat for mot's and then swap it for a decat pipe. :-)

[wood_patrick]

also if you give the motor a pretty good thrashing eg. hold lower gears for longer it'll clear the soot out of your motor and pipe and help towards getting you a pass :)

Is there any other way to drive V6 MR2? :-)

[thomp1983]

Your mot tester will just require something official looking with the camry reg number, engine number and date of conversion. I may or may not have written something similar on a lovely headed letter for my brother in laws skyline implying it had been fitted with an engine old enough to avoid the cat test. Im sure I know at least one forum member who could provide you with a registration of an eligible camry

[Les85]

But I think the law has now changed so that any car fitted with a cat as standard has to have one now regardless of age.

[thomp1983]

Nope the change in law has no bearing. Emissions tests are based on either chassis or engine whichever is oldest, if the car requires a non cat test then there is no requirement to look for the fitment of a cat, it's written in a subbox on the emissions flow chart in the testers manual

Chris.

[snowtigger]

Is there not like a stickie with the relevant info already done so we can avoid tons of threads about cat none cat tests?

[gavsdavs]

Nope the change in law has no bearing. Emissions tests are based on either chassis or engine whichever is oldest, if the car requires a non cat test then there is no requirement to look for the fitment of a cat, it's written in a subbox on the emissions flow chart in the testers manual

Chris.

Agree. Mine who is 1991/1992 import. Had a cat on the 3sge, but doesn't have to. Now has 2009 2gr (no cat) but gets tested as 1991 non cat car.

[Les85]

Nope the change in law has no bearing. Emissions tests are based on either chassis or engine whichever is oldest, if the car requires a non cat test then there is no requirement to look for the fitment of a cat, it's written in a subbox on the emissions flow chart in the testers manual

Chris.


Ah fair enough, so when's the cut of date for the cat law ?

[thomp1983]

August 1992 I believe was when it first came in but '93 K reg is the cut off although it's different again for imports

[Les85]

That's good to know, my 3vzfe came from a 1992 k but I don't know how I can prove it lol, thanks anyway though.

[Les85]

Yes it is on there but it is the problem of convincing the tester though.

[thomp1983]

Im not sure Toyota can trace vehicle identities from the engine number. About the closet you'lll get to a legitimate method is an engineers report stating approximate first use date and the relevant reg details

[headcase]

Les you do not need cat
You have a engine swap
If the tester says it does ask him were in the emission book is a v6 mr2 :-)
In the manual it's 7.3 page 1

[thomp1983]

The problem with that is that most testers will still test it off the age of the chassis unless you can prove the engine age as they refuse to be told their wrong

[Moffmo]

I'm confused again lol!

I dont mind swapping the CAT on MOT day.. but if you get pulled when you're driving around isnt it 3 points?

[headcase]

The problem with that is that most testers will still test it off the age of the chassis unless you can prove the engine age as they refuse to be told their wrong

Well if they don't listen ask for appeal forum watch him look in the tester manual and back track:-)
If they follow how the should do mot there should be no trouble. I allways when I update v5 give the engine number as something like 3vzfe1991 so the log book shows it . Then just get a plate made up to put on engine

[cdwood2010]

Or bring it to my local mot station, they don't seem to mind.

IMHO its all about finding a local friendly test station. Ask around, there's always one about.

I've never heard of anyone getting tugged for not having a cat.

C.

[Moffmo]

Good news. Thanks everyone. - This isnt something I really need to worry about for a while anyway lol.

[PeteV6R5]

I use to CAT mine for the MOT 1st 2 years - mongoose so no issues. then I read all about the tests and section 7. Always had my V5 showing V6 details, Good prompt to have engine year as well - not done that.
So went along to my MOT garage, told them it was a 93 engine - they looked it up on the data base and did the none CAT test without even blinking an eyelid.
Te next year another MOT'er was reving the car as if trying to clear it so I went in and asked him what he was doing.
He told me I was just failing the CAT rest parameter. --Just failing--, when I pointed out it was a 93 engine - he also looked up the details and came back and apologized and did the none CAT test. Needless to say it passed, now it has a Japspeed which I bung every year for the MOT.

[headcase]

This is all down to the mot tester not doing he's job correct there is no excuse for it . It gets right up my nose this as I am a tester , rant over :-) (BAD DAY) :-)