View Full Version : cant decide on an engine!
BennyTheW
04-02-2010, 14:28
Im still in the throws of umming and arrring about which engine im gona go for...
I really like the idea of doing some of the work myself, im an aircraft mechanic so the spanner stuff doesnt scare me, but i have 0 skill with a welder and fabrication isnt something ive done loads of ether...
hopefully when i move down to norwich (june) i might have some garage space but if not im just gona have to send the retro rocket up to Mr Woods for some fettling.. :)
I use the car as a daily so i want something that isnt gona kill me when i go to the shops,
i want to keep the car as useable as pos, so the boot has to stay and i would like to be able to refit the original boot trim after any mods, (is that pos with the 3sgte?)
obviously i want a fast car, but even the 4age'd version is the fastest car ive owned so maybe thats subjective...
my choices are
v6, worried about affecting the handling tho... what would be the curb weight of a tintop with a v6 fitted, expected bhp/ton?
3sgte, i know its a madman and i wouldnt want anything faster after but the boot being stolen isnt an option(would i have to go for a charge cooler) and it is bloody expensive to build!
2zzfe, 190 bhp=less than the other two, but it is lighter than the 4age so should give good returns+6speed box :drool::drool::drool: i have no idea the expected 0/60 time on this ether... any guesses? ( something tells me that even tho the 3sgte would make me grin my ass off, the 2zz would probs suit my driving style better)
i know i should pull my finger out and get started but when i cant even decide an engine type it makes it hard! lol
Thanks... Ben...
Given your options, I'd say if you were wanting a V6, then look at the 1MZ. The 3SGTE is nuts, but you could also try a BEAMS?
Lastly, the Celica 190 VVTiL engine is a cracker, you could very well install that and look at putting the Silverstone Performance, or the TTE Turbo kits on there - will be lighter than a 3SGTE, but more expensive.
snowtigger
04-02-2010, 14:55
3vz v6 on a budget 200bhp and a good cruiser engine.
1mz v6 newer alloy 200bhp a tad more expensive also a good cruiser.
3sgte turbo nutter engine 230bhp to how bigs your wallet can be expensive for a full donor clip
2zz your guess is as good as mine if you find one that isn't shaged buy the flaky precat debris and a 6 speed that's made from chewing gum internals if you put too much bhp through it.
2gr most expensive of the lot and requires a lot more modification to the car.
3vz/1mz gearbox options na with mk3 LSD mod and 5th gear motorway mod should be good for the 200bhp standard trim if going for uber amounts of bhp over 200 get a turbo gearbox there may be an option in the future for a 6 speed gearbox but that's in the future.
You could go for a rev3 190bhp 2.0 and na gearbox may be the cheapest option, or some thing completely different a d4d 190bhp turbo diesel.
BennyTheW
04-02-2010, 14:55
Given your options, I'd say if you were wanting a V6, then look at the 1MZ. The 3SGTE is nuts, but you could also try a BEAMS?
Lastly, the Celica 190 VVTiL engine is a cracker, you could very well install that and look at putting the Silverstone Performance, or the TTE Turbo kits on there - will be lighter than a 3SGTE, but more expensive.
sorry loads more questions!
what's the curb weight with the 1MZ?
How much could i pick a BEAMS unit for?
Would the 2zz be more expensive even tho the fabrication is less? or is that just based on a clip being more expensive?
thanks... Ben...
snowtigger
04-02-2010, 15:00
I think the 1mz is slightly liter than the 3sgte there was a weights table some where around will have to look.
You can keep your boot with the 3sgte. You can drive the 3sgte off boost and it is like any other car. I dont see the 3sgte being any more expenisive than any other swap other than the clip being a little more (+ £500 over a V6?).
I have a 2zzfe in my Corolla T Sport.. great past 6200RPM, absolutely horrendous below. Not my favourite engine!!
Johnnys a cunt, bobs your uncle, 3sgte for the win
How much could i pick a BEAMS unit for?
Youre looking at a grand I reckon.. and then I understand there are ecu issues??
GregHoon
04-02-2010, 15:13
The 1mz i have heard is ligher than the 3s-gte. The thing to remember about that is you are perhaps looking at the stock 200bhp as limit on that with it being an alluminium block. The 3s-gte engine is tuneable and like snow says dependant on money to invest you can aim for silly figures if you wanted. If possible try and find a member near you with an already fitted engine and see what you think?
BennyTheW
04-02-2010, 15:18
i should have known asking questions only get me more confused! lol
i spose if i had a 'cash no issue' situation i would go for a 3s without thinking, so maybe i should just stow my tits and go for it!
BennyTheW
04-02-2010, 15:20
If possible try and find a member near you with an already fitted engine and see what you think?
Good plan!
Anyone in Aberdeen!!!???
OH! ST is onto something there!
a D4D turbodiesel would be bloddy fantastic in there. you can use the EA6x 6 speed transmission that comes with it. it definately fits without body modifications.
and when you get a bit bored, just turn up the boost. people are already making good power with these motors.
OH! ST is onto something there!
a D4D turbodiesel would be bloddy fantastic in there. you can use the EA6x 6 speed transmission that comes with it. it definately fits without body modifications.
and when you get a bit bored, just turn up the boost. people are already making good power with these motors.
Yea, the mate 180bhp and 290lb/ft with no sweat. I'll bet you a bollock to a peanut that you can get 220bhp and around 340lb/ft from them - and that'll be a 3SGTE shit storm - and 50mpg.
2GR not mentioned? :rlol:
snowtigger
04-02-2010, 16:14
Have done the 2gr you blind git in my post.
I think it is more of a completely insane engine the 2gr as only those with deep pockets time and knowledge are on the cutting edge with the 2 gr motor another 3 to 4 years and they will be like a clitorisis.
Have done the 2gr you blind git in my post.
I think it is more of a completely insane engine the 2gr as only those with deep pockets time and knowledge are on the cutting edge with the 2 gr motor another 3 to 4 years and they will be like a clitorisis.
And there goes the integrity of this thread....
2GR, not cheap, but best all rounder IMO.
2GR not mentioned? :rlol:
i have to restrain myself to not be a complete whore about the 2GR-FE :tounge:
but he said he wanted to retain his trunk which pretty much eliminates the 2GR monster.
OH! ST is onto something there!
a D4D turbodiesel would be bloddy fantastic in there. you can use the EA6x 6 speed transmission that comes with it. it definately fits without body modifications.
and when you get a bit bored, just turn up the boost. people are already making good power with these motors.
Has anyone done this here yet? It's the one I'd like cause then I could pretend I was filling up a work van when I arrived at the fuel station with my 2 :shhh: :mrgreen:
Has anyone done this here yet? It's the one I'd like cause then I could pretend I was filling up a work van when I arrived at the fuel station with my 2 :shhh: :mrgreen:
from what i understand it's very similar in size to the 2AR which fits quite nicely:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/02/19.jpg
snowtigger
04-02-2010, 17:35
Only problem with the diesel option you will get the filling station people having a fruit about filling a sports car with diesel.
Only problem with the diesel option you will get the filling station people having a fruit about filling a sports car with diesel.
And we care about other peoples opinions? :)
brianbooth
04-02-2010, 17:57
Have done the 2gr you blind git in my post.
time and knowledge are on the cutting edge with the 2 gr motor another 3 to 4 years and they will be like a clitorisis.
Sooo.... a complete mystery to men that only women care about? :angel:
Diesel Meister
04-02-2010, 18:09
I'd be interested in retaining the boot / trunk but I'm committed to the 2GR now so I guess I'll roll without a spare and chuck luggage in the front / travel light
To the OP - if you're not a horizon-headbutting performance junkie an N/A 3VZ or 1MZ will make a fast car for not a huge amount of cash in a Mk1. The 3SGTE is similar to install and easier to upgrade though.
How about sticking with the 4age? :hidesbehi
If you can find a 4agze and convert to turbo you should be able to use standard ecu (4agze) and injectors etc, just find an na inlet manifold and bolt on a 4agte exhaust mani, chargecool it and you're done...
Or go megasquirt (or any standalone) and keep current motor, with reasonable boost levels and good tuning I would guess that 1MZ power levels would be easy attainable. You (should) also keep the rev-happy nature of the 4age, rather than lazy torque of V6
On other hand if you do want to double your current power, I think that rev3 onwards 3sgte's are a wee bit more compact (smaller inlet manifold) and might just fit without boot intrusion :afro:
The 1mz i have heard is ligher than the 3s-gte. The thing to remember about that is you are perhaps looking at the stock 200bhp as limit on that with it being an alluminium block. The 3s-gte engine is tuneable and like snow says dependant on money to invest you can aim for silly figures if you wanted. If possible try and find a member near you with an already fitted engine and see what you think?
No reason why you can't go over 200bhp, mrv6 was running 280bhp alright
BennyTheW
05-02-2010, 10:50
Now i must admit the D-4D sounds like a really interesting idea, bags of torque, good performance levels and diesel MPG... not sure of the unit weight tho?
I think a donor car would end up costing quite a bit, and finding a 2.2 might take a while...
It would deffo be a bit different tho!!!
How about sticking with the 4age? :hidesbehi
If you can find a 4agze and convert to turbo you should be able to use standard ecu (4agze) and injectors etc, just find an na inlet manifold and bolt on a 4agte exhaust mani, chargecool it and you're done...
Or go megasquirt (or any standalone) and keep current motor, with reasonable boost levels and good tuning I would guess that 1MZ power levels would be easy attainable. You (should) also keep the rev-happy nature of the 4age, rather than lazy torque of V6
If i had any workshop space i would consider doing a 4agte build, or even 4agtze... There doesnt seem to be much of a 4age culture here compared to America or Australia, but the power levels are deffo there... And the plus side of doing a build is you can spread the cost over a few months, so even if it is more expensive, you dont feel it!
MMMMMM, twin charged! now that would be Brutal...
Does anyone know what would be involved? i've never seen a twincharged setup up close and dont even know the layout?
2005, 2.2ltr D4D Avensis engine
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TOYOTA-AVENSIS-2-2-T3-S-D-4D-DIESEL-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ140380123622QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item20af4eb1e6
Car is Cat B - you should be able to get the loom and ECU from it!
BennyTheW
05-02-2010, 11:16
not bad!
So i start this thread with a choice of 3 engines...
now i have 5...
:drama:
the m ore i think of it tho a 4age build sounds fun, i used to build vw aircooled engines and really enjoyed it..
*now has to find a place with a garage/workshop when i move house!*
not bad!
So i start this thread with a choice of 3 engines...
now i have 5...
:drama:
the m ore i think of it tho a 4age build sounds fun, i used to build vw aircooled engines and really enjoyed it..
*now has to find a place with a garage/workshop when i move house!*
Speak to AlunJ - he's doing a 4AGE turbo build now :)
Moustachio
05-02-2010, 13:03
Benny, the only help I can offer is that you are not alone in your indecision...
see
http://forums.twobrutal.com/showthread.php?t=16848
Although as the days go by I'm leaning more toward the 3sgte, I'm hoping to get it done with Woodsport, if you compare costs etc, installing a rev3 turbo comes out more or less the same as a 1mz, I think...(waiting to sit corrected:D)
I'm aiming for 220bhp/ton at least for a trackday and sunny day blaster, as much I like the idea of having a v6, it just aint powerful enough without spending lots of money upgrading, and the 2gr is also out of my budget.
I'm yet to try either, so can't make the decision from experience, but weighing up all the pros and cons and comparing with my requirements ...well as I've said for me its leaning towards the 3sgte.
Anyway good luck deciding!
4a turbo is an underrated beast to be sure. You can get a real power increase of around 45bhp by ditching the sc from a supercharger engine and providing the same airflow via turbo (220+ bhp with ease and you get to keep the 4a redline).
Twincharger in it's most basic form is pretty much just a low-pressure turbo bolted to feed pre-compressed air to a supercharger. Blow 6 psi into the intake of an SC that normally makes 8psi and the output pressure will be over a bar - so you get instant SC style boost on the throttle but the ability to make much more power than normal as the turbo comes on song.
This is the sort of power delivery you get with a twincharger (this is a 350 horse nissan, but it's probably the best in-car vid I've seen that shows what they rev like) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuJEXp-EKso
It's on full boost by 2500rpm (at around 19psi I think). Which is mental :twisted:
For simplicity a lightly-tweaked 3sgte is nice lol
dgh938peg
05-02-2010, 20:20
Originally Posted by snowtigger View Post
Have done the 2gr you blind git in my post.
time and knowledge are on the cutting edge with the 2 gr motor another 3 to 4 years and they will be like a clitorisis.
Sooo.... a complete mystery to men that only women care about?
Sooo.... a complete mystery to men that only women care about? :angel:
Not quite Brian,
Every cunt's got one!
cartledge_uk
05-02-2010, 21:42
Speak to AlunJ - he's doing a 4AGE turbo build now :)
I had a 4agte until I blew the oil feed (after 0.5miles- athough mine was an N/a engine running a turbo with a trick on the ecu).
Speak to mk1chris. He has a 4agte and has driven it (admittidly it became aparant the rings were dead on the way to the MOT station) but he has driven a 4agze and 4agte.
smccullie
06-02-2010, 16:42
so what d4d engine would you use ??
snowtigger
06-02-2010, 20:42
the 180 bhp one of course like a standard rev3 only with great fuel economy i have some yorkshire blood in me short hands long pockets.
Ive driven a toyota corolla mpv with the 2.2 Dcat engine (about 175bhp) and its boring as hell.. The power band just sucks, you get no power under 2000rpm, then a butload of torque from 2000 to 4500 rpm and then its just gone. Dont get me wrong, its pretty damn fast, but it just gets boring after a while. If youre used to the power band of the 4AGE i would either go for a rebuild of turbo build, or get a 3SGTE.
The 3SGE works fine but isnt upgraded easily, and the V6's are fun, but cant rev as hard and are more expensive to upgrade.
Clarky_X
07-02-2010, 19:22
When I first started out looking at AW11 as a cheap sporty runabout and daily, I rapidly decided that I wanted the supercharged engine, even though I loved the red line in my NA, I wanted more power and torque and I love the torque of my SC even though it is sick. But it wasn't until after I'd discovered this site which is my favourite forum, that I realised that V6 implants were possible. I read an article in MR2 only about a V6 on track which said the handling balance was still good and the extra weight not massively noticeable, so I wish I'd waited and gone V6, but then if I'd done that, I'd have bought someone's old 1MZ when they upgraded to 2GR, but I'd be wishing that I'd gone 2GR, so would probably never have got a conversion done.
Anyway, what I was going to say was part of my primary reason for wanting the SC, was that I'd read a web site about an American twin charge, and really wanted to source an HKS twin charge kit to put on it as it sounded real nice, speak of V8 torque curves and mind boggling acceleration outdoing some magnificent motors. But then I found that the HKS kit is like finding hens teeth in rocking horse sh!t. And I'm also told that it is really hard to do a twin charge conversion on these, I think Lauren's been trying for years.
Anyway, for now I'll stick with my SC, but I'd love a 2GRFSE if I could keep the boot and keep it as my daily drive.
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