View Full Version : In pursuit of power records with 1MZ
I noticed there is a lot of activity on here with V6 conversion stuff.. and while I dont want to be posting entire threads twice on two different forums, I thought I'd at very least provide a link to the current shenanigans.
Link is here
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=375713
And teaser vid is here. (34mb)
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3start.mp4
Comments & discussion welcome :-)
-Tristan
ThingyNess
30-12-2009, 06:06
Looks amazing, although for some reason I can't get the vid to play in either of the two browsers I tried for some reason.
Also, I was going to post on the other forum but this seems like as good a place as any -- I know you have made multiple posts about research you've done on upgraded bits for the 1MZ -- everything from rod bolts, to head studs, main studs, valve springs, retainers, etc.
I came to the same conclusion you did (I think) -- that LS1 cracked-cap style rod bolts (M9x1.0) ought to fit and work well, but I'm still trying to find off the shelf bits that work for lots of the other parts.
I have some 2JZ-GTE valve springs I need to test fit, although lighter/better retainers would be handy.
Do you mind sharing some of your snippets of wisdom? I searched and couldn't find any definitive answers in any of your threads (although you do have lots of posts so I may have missed it)
I too yearn for proper head studs with the right thread engagement and even an undercut shank. Maybe even made from ARP2000 or H11/L19 or some other exotic material. The stock 1MZ bolts are pretty small.
Looks amazing, although for some reason I can't get the vid to play in either of the two browsers I tried for some reason.
Also, I was going to post on the other forum but this seems like as good a place as any -- I know you have made multiple posts about research you've done on upgraded bits for the 1MZ -- everything from rod bolts, to head studs, main studs, valve springs, retainers, etc.
I came to the same conclusion you did (I think) -- that LS1 cracked-cap style rod bolts (M9x1.0) ought to fit and work well, but I'm still trying to find off the shelf bits that work for lots of the other parts.
I have some 2JZ-GTE valve springs I need to test fit, although lighter/better retainers would be handy.
Do you mind sharing some of your snippets of wisdom? I searched and couldn't find any definitive answers in any of your threads (although you do have lots of posts so I may have missed it)
I too yearn for proper head studs with the right thread engagement and even an undercut shank. Maybe even made from ARP2000 or H11/L19 or some other exotic material. The stock 1MZ bolts are pretty small.
Try Quicktime plugin for your browser, it seems to work
So far so good on the ARP studs Im using currently, despite their less than 100% thread engagement. The last motor didnt show the slightest nanometer of head gasket leakage after extreme punishment.
From memory, 2JZ valve springs (Essentially like 3SGTE) will not fit.. Im sure I would have tried that already. The magic answer is 1GGTE valve springs... and good luck finding them :P When I did find some, I snapped up an extra set for a rainy day. Still have that set floating around and MAY be able to get more.. though they're not super cheap. Retainers Im not worried about. They're already quite small & light. I cant imagine any problems when coupled with stiff springs.
Paul Woods
30-12-2009, 09:10
Just amazing work Tristan :thumbsup: You really are pushing some boundaries with that one.
Diesel Meister
30-12-2009, 10:38
Just finished the MR2OC thread and video. That is some kind of spacecraft right there. Loving the attention to detail and general over-engineering.
Plus, car looks and sounds sweet! Nice work sir.
WhutTheFlup Auto lol
I've followed that car from the start on the MR2OC US site - it's just f'kin awesome!
I've followed that car from the start on the MR2OC US site - it's just f'kin awesome!
Following your build with interest too. Wanna race? :P
First one to the equator? :P
Haha! There is a significant lack of land between here and the equator. Are you trying to cheat already...
Well, people from Liverpool are known for gaining unfair advantages ;)
I guess the timeslips for the 1/4 will have to do!
*asks Ryan to calibrate the launch control on the Solaris!
Gary Symons
30-12-2009, 15:58
On behalf of all the admin team I would like to thank Tristan (wftauto) for his supportby signing up here as an affiliate.
And by all means, keep posting your project updates too :cool:
Superb stuff Tristan, many thanks for the support :thumbsup:
Paul Woods
30-12-2009, 19:17
There is a significant lack of land between here and the equator. Are you trying to cheat already...
Where johnny's going, he doesn't NEED roads http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/145.jpg
Limeymk1
31-12-2009, 18:21
Great work there Tristan. I always sit and read through the build threads for your MZ on the OC. :respekt:
Will def be after some of those H-Beam rods for my MZ at some point.
Another week or so of daily commuting put away and its time to fix all the nigglys that have become apparent. They are few, thankfully.. but testing my patience. With an engine like this crammed in.. even with 3 rounds of redesign to make it easier to work on.. it is still a nightmare.
But first, another teaser video!
VIIIIIIIIIIIIIDEOOOOOOOOOOO CLICKY CLICKY (http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3boost.mp4)
Just a small 5mb one this time. This one shows the twin boost gauges in operation (top and middle).. showing for the first time.. how boost behaves and transitions from small to big.
If you listen closely, you can hear halfway through a sort of 'VVTi' exhaust note change.. this is the valving switching over to the large turbo. The 'small' turbo gauge still shows boost under large turbo operation as it is plumbed into the inlet manifold. Run is from 2000rpm to 8000rpm. Turbo change over is somewhere around 4500rpm.. couldnt tell you exactly, I wasn't paying attention :)
This did look much cooler last motor.. because I was idiotic and bought 20psi gauges. Hence both gauges would go right off the clock at ~4500rpm. It was amusing.
-Tristan
Diesel Meister
05-01-2010, 13:13
Seriously nice :)
Very cool ...
I've got my work cut out to beat that!
You've got 0.4L more than me! How hard can it be! :-D
One less turbo!
Still a super cool car, Tristan.
Thanks Johnny. Dont be too concerned.. on paper, you have some huge advantages over mine. I dare say your goals are a bit conservative for what you have.
Very probably, but I prefer to build up slowly and then exceed ;)
I bet the ladies love you for that!
I bet the ladies love you for that!
Only one lady for me mate! And she does :P
Well fook me in the arse with a pogo stick!
You sir are crazy! Brilliant build!
Loving it, and anxiously looking to see what boost and rpm it goes out too.
Well fook me in the arse with a pogo stick!
You sir are crazy! Brilliant build!
Loving it, and anxiously looking to see what boost and rpm it goes out too.
Indeed Greeny. He's your competition, more than me :)
Thanks Greeny!
More progress.. *copied from MR2OC* I found a problem.. a big one. My intake bypass valve for the large turbo was leaking courtesy of a bad hose connection... How it still generated 12psi is beyond me! But the wastegate was barely opening if at all which explains a lot of things.. particularly the difficulty when tuning the ignition timing. Which means it was probably using all of its ~85lb/min flow potential just to generate that boost.
Upon a slight redesign and reconnection, the motor came to life. Wastegate is opening a lot.. more than the last motor ever did on the ~28psi it was pushing at the outlet which means Ive succeeded in lowering exhaust pressure requirement by a lot. Big turbo boost pressure went from 12psi to 20psi with no adjustment to the boost controller
And power has gone mental. Given it touched 350rwhp on the leaky tune.. Im pretty sure I should be over 400rwhp @ 12psi this time. Makes 600hp feel so much more achievable this time.
Whats more, this also solved the intercooler heat soak problem. Essentially, the big compressor was flowing WAY off its efficiency, pumping all that heat through the intercooler and then venting it to atmosphere. With this fixed, plus a change in the way the coolers are bled, the intake charge is staying very cool.
Counting down the days to the big tune now.. 5 more sleeps! :D
Indeed Greeny. He's your competition, more than me :)
Haha, i dont think id have a chance :help:
Its all just fun to me :mrgreen:
Tristan, that's great work and an excellent read. Top draw stuff mate.
Thanks Greeny!
More progress.. *copied from MR2OC* I found a problem.. a big one. My intake bypass valve for the large turbo was leaking courtesy of a bad hose connection... How it still generated 12psi is beyond me! But the wastegate was barely opening if at all which explains a lot of things.. particularly the difficulty when tuning the ignition timing. Which means it was probably using all of its ~85lb/min flow potential just to generate that boost.
Upon a slight redesign and reconnection, the motor came to life. Wastegate is opening a lot.. more than the last motor ever did on the ~28psi it was pushing at the outlet which means Ive succeeded in lowering exhaust pressure requirement by a lot. Big turbo boost pressure went from 12psi to 20psi with no adjustment to the boost controller
And power has gone mental. Given it touched 350rwhp on the leaky tune.. Im pretty sure I should be over 400rwhp @ 12psi this time. Makes 600hp feel so much more achievable this time.
Whats more, this also solved the intercooler heat soak problem. Essentially, the big compressor was flowing WAY off its efficiency, pumping all that heat through the intercooler and then venting it to atmosphere. With this fixed, plus a change in the way the coolers are bled, the intake charge is staying very cool.
Counting down the days to the big tune now.. 5 more sleeps! :D
As I said over on that very forum, Tristan - I'm battling a much tougher gremlin - the great British weather!
Haha, i dont think id have a chance :help:
Its all just fun to me :mrgreen:
That's exactly how we all approach it mate. Your car will be nuts in a straight line - Tristan's more low end, mine will be somewhere in the middle with less pipes - and a boot!
Great times for the MR2 these are.
Thanks Greeny!
More progress.. *copied from MR2OC* I found a problem.. a big one. My intake bypass valve for the large turbo was leaking courtesy of a bad hose connection... How it still generated 12psi is beyond me! But the wastegate was barely opening if at all which explains a lot of things.. particularly the difficulty when tuning the ignition timing. Which means it was probably using all of its ~85lb/min flow potential just to generate that boost.
Upon a slight redesign and reconnection, the motor came to life. Wastegate is opening a lot.. more than the last motor ever did on the ~28psi it was pushing at the outlet which means Ive succeeded in lowering exhaust pressure requirement by a lot. Big turbo boost pressure went from 12psi to 20psi with no adjustment to the boost controller
And power has gone mental. Given it touched 350rwhp on the leaky tune.. Im pretty sure I should be over 400rwhp @ 12psi this time. Makes 600hp feel so much more achievable this time.
Whats more, this also solved the intercooler heat soak problem. Essentially, the big compressor was flowing WAY off its efficiency, pumping all that heat through the intercooler and then venting it to atmosphere. With this fixed, plus a change in the way the coolers are bled, the intake charge is staying very cool.
Counting down the days to the big tune now.. 5 more sleeps! :D
Just shows how much air them blowers must of been moving!
So now you'l be flowing less air, with lower temps, less pressures and should make alot more power with less boost!
I wish i could find problems like that :mrgreen:
What clamps are you using? Im using mikalor, but i've been looking at wiggins clamps, stupidly expensive though!
Just shows how much air them blowers must of been moving!
So now you'l be flowing less air, with lower temps, less pressures and should make alot more power with less boost!
I wish i could find problems like that :mrgreen:
What clamps are you using? Im using mikalor, but i've been looking at wiggins clamps, stupidly expensive though!
Fancy! I used to run norma T-bolt clamps but Ive grown less fond of them recently. Now I use regular tridon worm drive.. they're high enough quality to allow decent clamping pressure without stripping the drive. And with a properly lipped pipe, they never come off.
In this case, the clamp was positioned wrong and ... missed the pipe. I blame my workers :P
I was over the moon when I went fishing through the trunk.. and found I could fit my whole finger through the gap where it was leaking. It went unnoticed for so long.. even on the dyno, because we've so thoroughly hidden the valve hardware.
As much as I hate that fixing a problem has thrown my current tune off, I was mostly hoping I HAD tuned it with the problem.. and was over the moon when I went for a test run and watched the gauge whip past 12psi...
If I can make more power at the same boost compared to the last donk, I will be so happy. Because compression ratio has been dropped from 9:1 to 8.4:1.. so high boost figures, which will be much higher than before, should be mental!
... should be mental!
Like it's not already :rlol:
Are you planning on offering this hardware as a kit? Would love a sequential compound on the Supra ;)
Like it's not already :rlol:
Are you planning on offering this hardware as a kit? Would love a sequential compound on the Supra ;)
The design was originally perfected on a Mk IV supra, around 12 months ago.. the current test mule is making over 500rwhp on pump / stock motor, running what is essentially a baby version of mine... GT25 / GT35 combo.. Check out the torque curve! :-)
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/other/mestorque.jpg
Im really trying hard to get this to a point where I can market a Mk IV kit.. but there is sooooo much money to be spent to get it there and Im not a big workshop compared to the big names.
-Tristan
Hit the dyno this morning and begun to tune the 1MZ.. low end results were interesting. I did gain a lot of midrange power, but the sacrafice was a LOT of low end.. more than I anticipated.
Minor complications here and there including rubbish boost control. But the big one was in tank fuel lines.. the brand of submersible line I used is quite simply crap. Twice in two weeks, the hoses have split. So we very very quickly dropped the tank and put a brand we previously used in there and buttoned it back up. By this point, I had only tuned to 3500rpm.. the remaining tune to 8000rpm had to be done in about 30 minutes as our dyno booking had run out so I had to rush it.. safely.
End result was 451whp at the same boost level it previously did 532whp. Fuel is -rich-.. hovering around 10.9:1 and ignition timing still needs work. Additionally, intake temps were through the roof after half an hour straight of run after run, and very little air flow to the intercooler heat exchanger.
The last motor picked up a lot of power (in the vicinity of 10%) by correcting the AFRs.. I suspect this one will do the same. I did take note of the power change down around 3000rpm with fuel adjustment.. it was around 10% also. I do believe 500whp will be achieved at this boost.. which is good, given how much compression has been dropped. I can deal with a 32hp drop for the ability to run much more boost.
But its not as high as I was hoping.
Got some promising torque figures in the midrange.. nearly 400ft/lbs before 4000rpm. However, engine efficiency in the top end beyond 6000rpm is sucking. I can only hope the bigger exhaust cams will help a bit.. I really hoped to get to 500ft/lbs at high revs but it just doesnt seem to want to get there right now.
Motor is noticably happier than the last one.. so so much less tendency to ping. Hopefully that means it'll last better too :)
Fun to drive with all the torque. It feels like a stock 3sgte x 3. ie.. boost response is like a ct26 on a 3s.. but power is of course multiplied.
It no longer has that 'supercharged' feel that the GT25 gave it which is eating at me. I may end up reducing the GT30 down...
Got this funny niggling feeling that Ive overlooked something.. something big. The numbers dont add up.. power should be higher. But maybe its something simple.. like the combustion chamber porting has killed the swirl, and the flow increase is not enough to offset it. Or maybe dropping the CR has more effect than I anticipated? Could I have lost ~10% power over the curve by reducing from 9:1 to 8.4:1 ? Really??
-Tristan
What about a compromise, Tristan, from the GT30, down to say a GT2860RS? They're good little turbos.
I can't see 9.1->8.4 robbing your of 10% power. But you never know.
You've not ported these heads have you? The gain in these motors is all in the heads. Time to look at cam development?
What about a compromise, Tristan, from the GT30, down to say a GT2860RS? They're good little turbos.
I can't see 9.1->8.4 robbing your of 10% power. But you never know.
You've not ported these heads have you? The gain in these motors is all in the heads. Time to look at cam development?
The head porting Ive done is minimal. But Im really not convinced Ive hit the upper limit of them yet..
You may be right in the long run.. I appreciate the comments & ideas.
-Tristan
Just bringing this thread up to date with the MR2OC one.. plus some more.
My power loss woes were caused by splits in my inlet manifold, which I welded up. Everything came to life at that point... GT30 is more than adequately responsive now.
However, the woes continue.. one week later, the inlet manifold has split open again. The manifold has been cut and shut so many times over the years for various reasons.. most notably exploding it courtesy of a firing order mistake some years ago and I dont think its ever been very strong since.
So I am just about to embark on inlet manifold V2 (after I finish my coffee). This one should hopefully perform better, be more practical to install & remove.. and most importantly, be a lot more durable. (And for those of you who have been asking me so often over the years about a production piece for the community, yes, Im designing it with this in mind). After much indecision, Ive decided to cut around 2-3" out of the runner length to try and boost my high RPM performance.. My fuel maps & wideband O2 suggest Im losing 20% of my torque going from 6000rpm to 8000rpm... I would rather that number be under 10%... I want to see that power figure at least plateau, if not be still slightly rising up to redline.
Performance is promising.. I have confirmed by dyno that my rear wheel power is well over 300 at 4000rpm... and since then, Ive leaned the AFRs to a much more power friendly 11.8:1 and increased ignition advance.. my butt dyno tells me torque at 7000-8000rpm is in excess of that 4000rpm mark.... the fuel maps agree also, with injector time @ identical AFRs being over ~10% higher at 7500rpm.
Not due to a higher VE (that would be an accomplisment).. but the fact it is running ~8psi more boost in the top end off the large turbo which seems to be doing a wonderful job of compensating for the ~20% VE loss. Makes sense given absolute pressure is 26% higher with that 8psi increase. Finally, everything seems to add up mathematically.
F***, Ive never typed so many "%"s in one post.. but with no dyno readily available, Im forced to resort to educated and somewhat tested and proven estimation methods to decide the correct direction of improvement before I book the dyno again.
Ive been pouring over a heap of my previous tunes of this car and others.. comparing injector times, ignition timing, AFRs and torque curves to come up with a formula which seems to be able to accurately estimate torque curves.
If the injector time / torque curve similarities are holding true like all the other motors Ive tuned.. then even taking into account the losses of spinning the motor at 2x the RPMs, I think power should be eclipsing 600whp already. Given the 'acceleration tests' Ive performed in 'controlled environments' against some other reasonably powerful cars.. and the results of them becoming specs in the rearview mirror in a very short time, its certainly believable.
Will be posting up inlet manifold design shots as I go. Coffee is just about gone. Im going to weep like a school girl as I cut the trumpets out of my old manifold to reuse them. Sad day.
-Tristan
...cut the trumpets out of my old manifold to reuse them. Sad day...
But a momentous day. It's significant moment, if you're >600whp with this already and going for more!
Congratulations is all I can say!! :thumbsup:
My car is really really well hung
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-53.jpg
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-54.jpg
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-55.jpg
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-56.jpg
:rlol: at you piece of shit!! Brilliant!!
Decision time. *drums fingers*.
Now that I have the trumpets in my hand to play with, Ive come up with yet another design idea. Its good. very good.
But I cannot make the runners shorter with this layout unless I heavily merge them into each other.
Must be time for another contemplation-coffee.
My car is really really well hung
http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2005/04/52.jpg
http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2005/04/52.jpg
http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2005/04/52.jpg
http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2005/04/52.jpg
I was thinking something similar if I go down the supercharger route.
Looks like a nice mani to start from
The biggest reason to discontinue this design (which you may wish to think about) is the two inner mounting holes. The only way I could use them was to put an insert in the lower section bringing the holes down from 10mm to 6mm, then drop a 6mm inhex bolt in and tighten them using a ball end long allen key, on a very heavy angle. The runners quite simply just go straight over the top of the holes making anything else impossible.
Ideal = hardly.
The best idea would be to weld extensions onto the lower section to move the mounting points somewhere more friendly.. but then it no longer works as 'bolt on'. And the fuel rails really sit in the way.
On another 1MZ we're building, we actually welded new mounting brackets onto the fuel rails to get more space.. but that makes it even less bolt on.
I have decided to go 1 inch shorter on the runners and merge the trumpet sections together for a compact fit.. which *JUST* allows enough room for my somewhat different mounting idea. More pictures to come soon
-Tristan
Keep the coffee out too :)
Gary Symons
26-01-2010, 17:15
lol at the second pic
Here we go. Two merged and shortened trumpets, and four mounting tubes. These will provide external mounting bolts.. ie, no need for a removable top section to bolt it down. Additionally, they should greatly increase the rigidity and strength of the entire piece once welded in
I took a blurry photo to illustrate how blurry my vision is going at this hour (2:30am currently)
You can see how much more compact this plenum is going to be (height no higher than the tubes, width not much more than the trumpets). I am looking forward to the improved throttle response. The last plenum was much too large.
If I'm right, I may just be able to put the factory engine lid shroud back on too.
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-57.jpg
Trumpet merging could be prettier.. next time should be better now that Ive done it once. 2 or 3 are going to get notched slightly more to fit the bolt tubes also.
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-58.jpg
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-59.jpg
30 mins of careful press work later, we have the correct shape. It will ultimately sit at least 1/2" lower than it is now to keep it compact. I have a following of people who are putting 1MZFEs into RA28 celicas (RWD) who want a manifold to fit in their very-short-of-bonnet-clearance engine bays so I'm trying to cater for that too.
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-60.jpg
knightrous
26-01-2010, 23:17
http://www.woodsport.org/forum/images/recovered/2005/04/52.jpg
Tristan, do you have a CAD file or a sketch of that manifold flange? I'm currently designing some ITB's for my 1MZ and this would be a massive help. Also, with the flange, I noticed you have all the holes the same size/shape, looking at my 1MZ lower intake manifold, one bank has oval holes on it (for the way the stock manifold rolls over the top). Did you weld up these ports a bit and make them round to match the flange you've made for your trumpets?
Tristan, do you have a CAD file or a sketch of that manifold flange? I'm currently designing some ITB's for my 1MZ and this would be a massive help. Also, with the flange, I noticed you have all the holes the same size/shape, looking at my 1MZ lower intake manifold, one bank has oval holes on it (for the way the stock manifold rolls over the top). Did you weld up these ports a bit and make them round to match the flange you've made for your trumpets?
No cad file sorry, that resides with my laser cutter.
Yes, I have the holes cut round... this gives me some extra options. for example, on the previous manifold, I used the die grinder to finish enlarging the holes on an angle to suit the direction they were heading into the lower manifold.
Took a break to sleep last night... now Im back on it.
A lot of prep work later, the welding has finally begun.
Happy to see the trumpet merging and slotting for the bolt tubes is going neatly.. moreso than I originally thought.
Shame the trumpets look so ugly and second hand... but not point scrubbing them up for them to only get dirty again (and be forever hidden)
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-61.jpg
Nothing wrong with a bit of trumpet polishing Tristan!
Take it the coffee is out in force?
Kettle is boiling as I type :)
Its better when someone else polishes your trumpet.
Two runners and one bolt tube to go. Why does everything always take 4 times longer than it should!
Kettle is boiling as I type :)
Its better when someone else polishes your trumpet.
Two runners and one bolt tube to go. Why does everything always take 4 times longer than it should!
I know that feeling! But it's always worth it when it works :thumbsup:
Finished the top end internal welding. Probably my only complaint is that I cut one of the runners on a slightly different angle to the rest... so symmetry is compromised. But that is all.. it wont effect efficiency in any way.
Im really pleased with how I managed to cram so much into such a little space. Most certainly the most complex inlet manifold Ive done so far. And quality is miles beyond the last one.
Welding could be better but Im so tired I can barely focus my vision :)
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-63.jpg
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-64.jpg
it's very nice to see someone paying attetion to the flow dynamics on a turbo motor. there are so many ugly intake and exhaust manifolds on turbo motors in the name of "just turn up the boost"
i'm a little surprised you haven't welded the top of the trumpets together and blended the mating surface, thoughts on this?
it's very nice to see someone paying attetion to the flow dynamics on a turbo motor. there are so many ugly intake and exhaust manifolds on turbo motors in the name of "just turn up the boost"
i'm a little surprised you haven't welded the top of the trumpets together and blended the mating surface, thoughts on this?
Thanks Gouky, I learnt a long time ago that its so much better to maximize the hardware you have through basic breathing efficiency rather than bigger turbos and more boost and lumpy cams. I think this is a huge factor in regards to the power figures I tend to get off standard camshafts in many motors I build.
With the trumpets being on such different angles, welding them together would be a real challenge.. especially considering they are spun from extremely thin aluminium. They sit more askew relative to each other than the pictures suggest... and manipulating them into a different shape seems to cause them to distort. I really think such a task is beyond my fabrication abilities.
Mating surface.. are you referring to where the trumpets join each other, or the base flange?
-Tristan
Thanks Gouky, I learnt a long time ago that its so much better to maximize the hardware you have through basic breathing efficiency rather than bigger turbos and more boost and lumpy cams. I think this is a huge factor in regards to the power figures I tend to get off standard camshafts in many motors I build.
With the trumpets being on such different angles, welding them together would be a real challenge.. especially considering they are spun from extremely thin aluminium. They sit more askew relative to each other than the pictures suggest... and manipulating them into a different shape seems to cause them to distort. I really think such a task is beyond my fabrication abilities.
Mating surface.. are you referring to where the trumpets join each other, or the base flange?
-Tristan
i was referring to the top of the trumpets being blended together.
as for welding thin aluminium stuff, yeah, you need someone with significant skill to do that.
i was referring to the top of the trumpets being blended together.
as for welding thin aluminium stuff, yeah, you need someone with significant skill to do that.
Ultimately, this design should be using flared trumpets rather than the full rolled edge. Alas this is what I had. But anything I make henceforth in this design will have flared. These, I could easily manipulate and weld.
I can and have welded thin aluminium, but never with gaps of this magnitude. And any filler piece of aluminium to soak up the gap just disappears instantly into molten mush.. because it'd be so small.
*update*
Here, Ive welded the trumpets internally in the areas I could not access from the outside.. and also filled some areas to improve the shape / transition. Then port matched and shaped to flow well with the lower section
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-65.jpg
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-66.jpg
I've resurrected an old decommissioned throttle inlet I had CNC turned years ago. Why not? :)
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-67.jpg
Throttle-eye-view
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-68.jpg
Almost there. Will no doubt have it done later today. Damn but it has taken some hours.. by the time it has some cosmetic touch ups (probably polishing).. I think this manifold owes me over 30 hours. Though more appropriate (and new) materials would have made it substantially quicker.
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-69.jpg
kameleon
31-01-2010, 08:52
nice!
Well, result!
Ive spent the day testing the new manifold in all ambient temps and the results look good. Response is certainly better and power feels to have jumped up over the whole band. Tyres are much more reluctant to maintain traction.. though whether this is from a more aggressive torque curve or more torque/power outright is really difficult to tell.
Additionally, my idle has dropped 200rpm lower than the old manifold ever achieved, confirming my hunch it had more leaks than I was aware of.
Most interesting though is that my peak boost pressure has DROPPED. Why is this so? I do not know. But for it to be pulling stronger with 3-4psi less.. that is positive. Now I still have 6 or 7psi to push into it.. which should be worth a lot of HP.
-Tristan
...aaand the pics. Ive not had a moment to clean it up any or make it pretty so please excuse the finish
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-70.jpg
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-71.jpg
http://www.wtfauto.com.au/images/forums/1mzbuildv3/1MZV3-72.jpg
That is very nicely done - and very quickly done too. Great job.
Looking good... and sounding even better from the descriptions of first impressions :yourock:
Its due to you eliminating losses in the intake tract.
The lower intake also generates a loss as ive found when testing it on the head so any elimination of these flow losses means the engine makes similar power with less boost which in turn means you can raise the boost further and make more power.
This does make sense. After all, we're measuring plenum pressure.. but that is not necessarily relative to runner pressure / flow or cylinder fill.
Is that what you're getting at?
Im tempted to go for a run in a few minutes and push it back to 22psi.
dgh938peg
01-02-2010, 15:39
+1 - what he says!!! :D
Well, 5% more duty on the boost controller and boost is back to around 21psi. Small turbo is 15 - 18psi, depending on gear.
I did take note of boost response.. in taller gears, Im seeing 15+psi at 2900rpm which is nice. This means that whilst cruising at 60mph in 5th, I can still pull about 300-350ft/lbs at the wheels.. no need to shift down on an overtake or anything.
I think Ive succeeded in raising high RPM torque with the new manifold.. Its difficult to 'feel' any torque drop off all the way to 8000rpm.. I may have actually achieved that 'less than 10% drop' target. Maybe. I still cant believe how well this motor is able to breathe on stockish camshafts.. thanks muchly to the big inlet valves and long rod ratio I believe... and the manifold of course :)
Can't wait to see what 25psi delivers... not to mention more ignition advance. Im only running the same advance as the last motor, despite the compression drop and slower burn combustion chamber design.
Oh, paid some attention to the inlet temps too. Ambient temp is perhaps 15C.. and its difficult to get inlet past 35C even with a lot of thrashing.. so nice to see how fast the temps come back to a cool level after coming off the throttle as fresh water flows through the intercoolers.
I think Im driving this car too much though. Never thought I'd say it but 500+whp is beginning to feel ordinary. I think it needs 700. However, it really put things in perspective today when I drove a customer's gen III 3sge SW20. :blink:
Diesel Meister
02-02-2010, 12:29
Good grief man. You will become a megalomaniac before long with those sort of power levels. Loving the dedication, workmanship and attention to detail - great stuff all round :thumbsup:
What you got in terms of a fuel setup in that thing Tristan?
What you got in terms of a fuel setup in that thing Tristan?
Cheers DM
Im running twin walbro pumps in tank, a HKS pressure reg and sard 720cc injectors.
You're getting that off the stock rails? Nice!
You're getting that off the stock rails? Nice!
Nothing wrong with the stock rails, they have a very large internal bore.
Im dual feeding the rails (you can see in the manifold construction pics).. Ive sliced the end off both rails and tapped thread so each one has an inlet and outlet.
Then Ive got a y-piece after the fuel filter.. and another one collecting back to the reg
Yea, that's sounding like what I'm wanting do to to mine. Dual feed with -6AN and then a single return to the reg.
I hate fuel setups now :)
Well, interesting experience tonight.
I took my local toyota parts manager for a drive.. the car seemed quite enthusiastic when it came to rolling power on in 2nd up to ~65mph.. was carrying a perfect amount of controllable wheelspin all the way to redline.
But how much, I didnt realise. After cooling the car down for 1.5 miles with a gentle drive before pulling into the workshop, I opened the door to be greeted by the smell of burning rubber. Others at the workshop could smell it waft in the door.
I wasn't paying any attention to the rearview mirror but I suspect there may have been a bit of tyre smoke peeling off under acceleration :)
Well, interesting experience tonight.
I took my local toyota parts manager for a drive.. the car seemed quite enthusiastic when it came to rolling power on in 2nd up to ~65mph.. was carrying a perfect amount of controllable wheelspin all the way to redline.
But how much, I didnt realise. After cooling the car down for 1.5 miles with a gentle drive before pulling into the workshop, I opened the door to be greeted by the smell of burning rubber. Others at the workshop could smell it waft in the door.
I wasn't paying any attention to the rearview mirror but I suspect there may have been a bit of tyre smoke peeling off under acceleration :)
LOL! you need to get some kinds of traction control in there I think!
What's the ECU you're running AEM?
Haha you are actually surprised that it eats you're tires? What else did you expect with over 500whp you maniac! :)
So, the fun continues. pursuit of power is certainly being dragged out longer than I'd like, like a pursuit on "COPS".. but the effort just makes me more fond of the car. Wanna buy it? Offers over 1 billion USD considered :P
I attempted a drag strip session but came away with a relatively crappy first pass of 11.7 @ 125mph on regular tyres... and then the times dropped off more and more every run. Once I pulled the plugs, the problem became obvious.. one plug was properly black. Tracked it down to a problem with injector insulators.
Gave the motor a very thorough check over and everything else still looks good. Leak down tests give identical results to my first test after run-in.
I did have the opportunity to test my acceleration against a couple of quick GTRs recently. both of them claiming around 550whp or more, one could not keep up.. the other was a perfect match.
One comment I keep getting is that people cannot get over the response of the turbo system. It only takes a split second to get up on boost while the big single turbo GTRs take 1-2 seconds to get up to their ~ 2 bar.
Fun fun fun.
Brilliant news that. 550whp isn't to be sniffed at!
And proper lol @ crappy 11.7s 1/4 mile!
Its a little disheartening when Im still posting slower times than I did with my various 3sgtes 4 years ago. I can only imagine where they would be now if I continued development instead of switching to the v6.
Of course there is consolation in the fact that this has more response than a stock CT26 3sgte... rather than the total lack of boost until 5000rpm of the 3s. Makes it much more usable.. but I wont rest until 10.9 on street tyres.
One would hope it'd be capable of 11.4 - 11.5 now with the injector fix.
More boost I guess :)
Yea!
I know a Supra that ran a 10.9 on streets, with 622whp - so probably 570-580whp in the '2?
Genuine street tyres, not street legal drag radials? If so, thats very impressive for a supra. They aren't exactly the best for traction.
I am expecting to need ~600rwhp for the task, yeah
Genuine street tyres, not street legal drag radials? If so, thats very impressive for a supra. They aren't exactly the best for traction.
I am expecting to need ~600rwhp for the task, yeah
Yea, using Syvecs ECU with Line Lock to warm the rears and then launch control + traction control. There's a video somewhere and he shows zero mechanical sympathy.
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