View Full Version : Standard shocks
Just wondering what the actual difference would be with the aftermarket shocks to stock ones.
For day to day driving is it worth it?
Seeing as I have only ever driven on standard shocks I don't know what difference there is :question:
Barronmr
19-07-2009, 21:40
Usually a fair bit, lol.
Standard shockers are generally a compromise of comfort and grip, leaning more to the comfort setup (depending on how sporting the model of car is).
Generally aftermarket suspension setups are usually more firm and offer more grip. They achieve this mostly by trading off some of the comfort.
I drove back to back, a tired n/a setup on a mk2 v6 and a rev3 turbo with tein superstreets. Both on standard wheels, so a reasonably fair test. And the difference in ride quality and road holding was noticeable. In my short experience the teins still absorbed 95% of what the n/a susp would comfortably, but gave a far more grip when required and felt more stable.
That said I got on fine with the standard n/a suspension and I'm hopefully going back to it as its another modification I can live without on a road car.
Personal choice, if in an ideal world I'd have teins with standard wheels or at a push 16's inch wheels. I wouldn't recommend going go low profile and teins or any other firmer suspension.
theres plenty of difference, some good some bad. in terms of performance youll usually gain some, more grip basically and the adjustability to fine tune the balance of the car. but youll sacrifice comfort with most of the dampers available. some are worse than others, Koni are probably the best. but anything stiffer than fully soft and youll start to notice the differences in comfort. the springs they come with are awful, progressive springs in general usually are, but the Koni springs are so ridiculously soft that there is no control whatsoever in bump (the dampers are all rebound and no bump damping, as are most, unfortunately), and the car just jacks down with rebound which makes the ride even harsher. im running mine without bump stops at present and the crashing is not pleasant over any kind of road surface irregularity. the springs really arent helping the issues, stock springs would be better!!
i need to get my Fensport springs on them and some bump rubbers to stop the crashing and try that. in terms of performance they arent bad though, and they wouldnt be uncomfortable if they had more control in bump. it sounds odd, but they need stiffer springs to improve comfort lol (they need some bump damping, but unfortunately that isnt possible). the opposite of what most people will tell you, but there are a few rare occasions where its the case, and MR2 Konis with the awful springs they ship them with is one of those occasions.
lots of guys in the US are running Konis with coilover sleeves and spring rates in excess of 300lbs/in all round and they swear it isnt uncomfortable on the street. im not entirely convinced, but i can beleive it would be better than running with these nasty soft springs. simply because their springs arent progressive. badly developed progressive springs (im yet to find any aftermarket ones that arent, for any application) are the work of the devil.
I wouldn't recommend going go low profile and teins or any other firmer suspension.
yeh, this is definitely a bad idea! if youve got dampers that can be revalved then youre fine, minimal tyre deflection can be compensated for. i made this assumption when i stuck 195/45's on 16" rims, anticipating throwing some Ohlins on. but ive had to put the Ohlins off for a little longer and with Koni's the ride is ridiculously harsh. the stuff i just typed above accounts for much of that, but the tyres arent helping matters.
Diesel Meister
20-07-2009, 12:52
Will you be providing ready to fit Ohlins for the Mk1 any time soon Jim?
I'd be interested, provided we're not talking new prices (£3-4k and up). Not becuase I don;t think it's worth it, merely for the usual cash flow issues lol
Jim, I have pretty much the same idea as Ant in as much as I'd like to add aftermarket dampers and springs or coilovers to improve the handling and drop the ride height 30mm [more for aesthetic effect] on theMK2 Rev3.
I don't want a "Max Power" type look but I am interested in improving the handling for road use, I won't be road racing or using it for track days purely for the driving experience so what would you recommend as an aftermarket addition?
John.
Diesel Meister
20-07-2009, 17:12
John - good point.
I forgot say that I'm looking for primarily road use, with occasional track-ability. I'm fairly sceptical that coilovers will provide decent damping (in terms of a level, relatively pain-free ride and in terms controlling the wheels adequately on our acne-spec roads) without being completely custom designed.
If I could afford that, I'd probably buy a Lotus or a Porsche lol
Looking like the Konis, plus seeing what option there are for swapping the springs for a set with the best compromise between compliance and control. Eibach maybe? I think they're prog-rate though....
custom mk1 Ohlins are too expensive, nobody would want to spend the money, although at some point in the near future the option will be there for anyone that wants to take it. im not expecting any takers lol price will easily be in excess of £3k, probably nearer 5!!
mk2 Ohlins cant be made to fit easily unless the coilover versions can be sourced, and they are pretty rare and no longer in production. and even then there are still issues with lengths.
at present Koni inserts are probably the best off-the-shelf upgrade, with decent springs. the Eibachs might not be too bad, Eibach put a lot more thought into their kit so the progressives have probably been tested more. they have actually made an alteration to the front springs in the kits recently ive heard, so they are obviously still making improvements where necessary. ground control coilover sleeves are a fairly common addition to give universal sized springs and height adjustment. this is currently the way forwards
none of the existing coilover solutions for the AW11 are worth bothering with. D2/KSport/F2/whatever else they are branding them as now are pretty awful. BC Coilovers are much of the same, they have a good reputation in some parts at present, but so did D2 stuff until people started to dyno test them, pull them apart and experience failures. when you find out theres a 100% mismatch in damping forces from one side to the other and tubes so thin that they create more friction under light side loadings than they do damping force then opinions soon change! then youve got the Toda coilovers that cost about 3 grand and are only worth £1200 tops and probably valved badly for European roads.
there is a work in progress on getting a decently priced, high performing road and track AW11 coilover on the market. its still a long way off though, no idea when such a product will appear. for now Koni are the best bet still.
Never realised they could be so expensive :blink:
im not expecting any takers lol price will easily be in excess of £3k, probably nearer 5!!
Fark me!! :doh:Stocks it is then, Ant
Yep stock set-up for me I think. What's the score with the rebuild-able shocks can you get any upgraded inserts for these :angel:
Diesel Meister
20-07-2009, 21:36
I'm not surprised by the cost although I was hopefull that a bill of £3k+ could be avoided - a forlorn hope!
Then again, it would be completely worth it if I was looking at tracking a classic 911 or something else like that. At least then the car would be worth more than the suspension parts alone. You could easily spend £6-8k on custom made, competition spec dampers if you want them, perhaps in excess of £10k if you're insane but well connected, don't mind extensive re-engineering of your car and months (and/or thousands to pay an expert) getting a good setup.
Until such time, I think Koni (and GC later maybe) and decent springs is it for these cars, unless you're racing or have more money than sense.
Then again, more money than sense is arguably where everyone on the 2GR GB is (some of us are about to spend more on a new engine than we bought our cars for) lol
I just figure I want as close to optimal for chassis and brake upgrades as is possible, whilst not completely altering the road bias of the car beyond recognition, or incurring the wrath of my bank manager twice in the same month.
Jim, not sure if you've mentioned before but what springs do you recommend for the Koni inserts?
Barronmr
20-07-2009, 22:20
Yep stock set-up for me I think. What's the score with the rebuild-able shocks can you get any upgraded inserts for these :angel:
I think its only the rev1 shocks that are rebuildable with aftermarket inserts and rev2+ are not.
If your car was n/a to begin with then rev2+ turbo shock absorbers are an upgrade worth considering as they came with bilsteins (black) as standard. These are probably the best budget improvement for a UK car.
Or still sticking with non-coilover type improvements, yellow bilsteins are a slight stiffer more sporting verison of the stock turbo setup. Fensport sell them brand new for around £150+Vat+P&P a corner.
And I think Jim-SR will agreed with me that bilstein setups are pretty highly regarded in the suspension world.
Barronmr
20-07-2009, 22:24
Jim, not sure if you've mentioned before but what springs do you recommend for the Koni inserts?
I think he said Eibach's progressive springs or using the ground control sleeved coilover conversion kit (also has Eibach springs, I've got one kicking about if you want to some pics to see what they are.
Regards Luke
Until such time, I think Koni (and GC later maybe) and decent springs is it for these cars, unless you're racing or have more money than sense.
Agree with DM, whilst we all want the best there has to be a viable limit to what is spent. Again, if you spend in excess of £6k on coilovers unless you are doing some serious track work you probably wouldn't see the full benefit.
Just the same £10k on suspension for a road car thats BRUTAL :thumbsup:
Ohlins actually make some MacPherson strut units that are around £2700 a piece, WITHOUT ears and top mounts lol. those would all need to be made custom. so that would run you to about £12k fitted on the car. its what pretty much everyone in BTCC is running up front, with the equivalent dampers on the rear (non McP versions). theyre 4 way adjustable TTX dampers, they use a through-shaft so that the shaft itself doesnt displace any oil. normally the shaft displacement has to be accounted for by a pressurised gas canister (or in cheaper dampers by a big air gap, such as most of the dampers available for the MR2). these dont have that problem, they run gas pressure just to stop the oil cavitating and thus there is no gas acting as a spring, and faster response from the valving. not that anyone needed to know that, thought it might be of interest though. they are awesome dampers, probably the best dampers on the market. Valentino Rossi has equivalent technology on his MotoGP bike, as does Stoner and pretty much anyone whos worth a damn in the bike world. the bike kit is actually more advanced than the car product, Ohlins tend to do their development on bikes first and then transfer it down to cars later.
as for viable MR2 solutions with springs - no idea what springs are best without trying them all. ive tried the Lesjofor/Koni springs and they are awful. next on the list is Fensport because ive got a set sat here doing nothing. Ground Control coilover sleeves and Eibachs are the way forwards though, i may even get a set for my own just so i can have a mess around with them. saves me blowing a load of money on building myself some Ohlins in the meantime. ive got too many other financial commitments at present.
if i find a setup that works well il be sure to let everyone know. my setup isnt helped by low profile stiff-sidewalled tyres, although ultimately these will prove beneficial. at present they are hindering me because i have very limited control over the damping to compensate.
Jim-SR .....not that anyone needed to know thatAwesome response Jim, and I disagree it is always worth knowing. It has given me a real insight into what to consider when assessing the suspension set up.
BTW - I wouldn't bother with the Fensports, you're much to busy. Send them my way and I'll find a use for them. rotflmaorotflmaorotflmao
I think its only the rev1 shocks that are rebuildable with aftermarket inserts and rev2+ are not.
Can anyone confirm this as I have a rev3:)
Yep, only the rev1 are rebuildable AFAIK.
Even new Mk1 struts from Toyota are a sealed unit as Nik found out recently.
Mine are rebuildable I got receipts for the inserts that the last owner had put in, I thought barronmr was saying that rev2+ had to have them rebuilt with stock parts.
Nope, the rev2 onwards are supposed to be sealed units, as in no nut that comes off the top and allows you to change the insert shock absorber.
I know it's the same on the half an ST182 aswell, just to confuse things.
Well if that's the case I think mine have been changed over
I'll have a look after see what was actualy put on
Last receipt for shocks - mr2-2 RR-365100 KYB Gas inserts £54.50 each
Think I've just answered my own question, kyb are updated ones aren't they?
If so I feel a bit of a plunker now:jester:
Been looking on the net and now know these are just a standard replacement, can anyone tell me where I can find out what the specs are for the different revs/na/tubby :angel:
to jump into this post again...
Jim do you think that the mk2 will be similar to the mk1 when it comes to the koni's, performance wise?
I have standard black bilsteins with apex lowering springs and the roads round my way are fun but soo flippin bumpy! I need something that will not knock my teeth out. My friend is breaking his mk2 mr2 and has a set of koni's but its been soo long since its been on the road, he can't remember how stiff it was. Do you think getting his koni's with my apex springs would be a good choice?
or is it my springs that are making my ride soo harsh? would i be better sticking with the black bilsteins and getting differnet springs?
to jump into this post again...
Jim do you think that the mk2 will be similar to the mk1 when it comes to the koni's, performance wise?
I have standard black bilsteins with apex lowering springs and the roads round my way are fun but soo flippin bumpy! I need something that will not knock my teeth out. My friend is breaking his mk2 mr2 and has a set of koni's but its been soo long since its been on the road, he can't remember how stiff it was. Do you think getting his koni's with my apex springs would be a good choice?
or is it my springs that are making my ride soo harsh? would i be better sticking with the black bilsteins and getting differnet springs?
its probably the springs that are the issue at present. how low is the car? too low is usually the first issue with harsh ride quality, next is excessive rebound coupled with soft springs, then finally it tends to come down to more specific damping issues.
if you can get some Koni's cheap though then they are probably worth a try. the Bilsteins shouldnt be bad though, they were an OEM option on the mk2 werent they?
I think the springs lower it by 30mm but then I don't know how good the Apex springs are. I inherited them at some point.
I think I might try replacing them and then if it doesnt work out, could purchase the koni's and use them with whatever springs it is I get as initially springs would be cheaper to buy.
Can you recommend any different springs for the mk2? preferably quite a progressive spring?
most people think that they prefer progressive, but ive been having a discussion with some guys on the US boards about how poor progressives are for performance, typically. they dont really offer any benefits over linear springs, not even in terms of comfort if you spec springs carefully. its a bit of an internet myth IMO, in principal they sound like they are the best of both worlds, in practice they are the worst of both worlds.
how much money are you looking to spend? because youve got a few options. you could either get some MR2 fitment aftermarket springs and fit those, which limits you in what you can achieve. the next option is ground control coilover sleeves which come with universal Eibach linear rate springs (of your choosing), but cost something like $400 iirc. this gives you probably the most flexible setup as you can alter spring rates easily, will also have ride height adjustment, and can then match springs to dampers more easily, especially if you upgrade in future. the final option is to get a complete coilover suspension setup, but i dont think youll find much improvement over Bilstein or Koni dampers for sensible money, youve got to go for KW or Ohlins really to get real quality, the Japanese stuff is always super stiff in rebound damping and oversprung, the Chinese stuff is just nasty. i dont think you necessarily need to go as far as this.
personally id consider ground control sleeves. if thats outside of what you want to spend then maybe consider Eibach or ST springs in MR2 fitment. the problem is that you might buy another set and find that they are no better than the Apex springs. then you may change dampers and find that still doesnt fix it. and youll have to buy another set of springs again and the costs soon add up. with the ground control setup you can easily sell the Eibach universal springs on which come with the sleeves if they arent quite right, and then buy some cheaper universal springs to replace them if you want to change rate, and youre not spending any extra money!
nikwills
19-08-2009, 00:43
I have APEX springs with standard dampers, I bought them off ebay and was told on buying them that they were for fast road/trackday use, they lowered my mk1a by about 35mm all round, they do give a harsher ride but I would expect that, they are much stiffer than the standard springs with obviousley not as much travel in them. The question I have is that although they have been on the car now for 12 months I recently read somewhere that the tracking/toe/camber etc would need adjusting, do I really? Tyre wear has remained even, it handles so much better(even more so with the v6) and I really have to get silly to get the back end to sway(could that be the much bigger diameter mk2 tubby arb?) As an afterthought mk3 wheels with 195/50's all round.
most people think that they prefer progressive, but ive been having a discussion with some guys on the US boards about how poor progressives are for performance, typically. they dont really offer any benefits over linear springs, not even in terms of comfort if you spec springs carefully. its a bit of an internet myth IMO, in principal they sound like they are the best of both worlds, in practice they are the worst of both worlds.
how much money are you looking to spend? because youve got a few options. you could either get some MR2 fitment aftermarket springs and fit those, which limits you in what you can achieve. the next option is ground control coilover sleeves which come with universal Eibach linear rate springs (of your choosing), but cost something like $400 iirc. this gives you probably the most flexible setup as you can alter spring rates easily, will also have ride height adjustment, and can then match springs to dampers more easily, especially if you upgrade in future. the final option is to get a complete coilover suspension setup, but i dont think youll find much improvement over Bilstein or Koni dampers for sensible money, youve got to go for KW or Ohlins really to get real quality, the Japanese stuff is always super stiff in rebound damping and oversprung, the Chinese stuff is just nasty. i dont think you necessarily need to go as far as this.
personally id consider ground control sleeves. if thats outside of what you want to spend then maybe consider Eibach or ST springs in MR2 fitment. the problem is that you might buy another set and find that they are no better than the Apex springs. then you may change dampers and find that still doesnt fix it. and youll have to buy another set of springs again and the costs soon add up. with the ground control setup you can easily sell the Eibach universal springs on which come with the sleeves if they arent quite right, and then buy some cheaper universal springs to replace them if you want to change rate, and youre not spending any extra money!
well thats certainly given me more food for though. Thanks! At first thoughts just now, I am thinking that I might get a new set of springs, probably the eibach as they do seem to be quite popular with mr2 owners. But I'll look into the ST's as I've never heard of them.
I'd love to be able to spend the money getting a ground control set up but I can't at the moment. There have been a few too many things I've had to get whilst doing my engine rebuild and a few things that still need done before the car is finished.
Thanks Jim, your info has been really really good!
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