View Full Version : Soo close - frustrated again
Frustration levels through the roof - need help (again). Got everything running (new manifold and throttle body solved high idle - thank you Paul). Drove around for some time testing etc - ready for inspection and insurance. Parked it overnight. Next morning, fired it up and pushed in the "defogger" button. Smoke from the dash. Found problem - disconnected a plastic 4 prong connector (looks to only centralize the wires for the "defogger" as all are black with a green wire only). NOW there is NO CEL light and no start (everything else SEEMS to be in order).
Did all the tests: grounding N1 gives a CEL light on dash. Checked E7 pins - 13, 24, 26 for full continuity to earth (all good), Checked E10 for computer power at 2, 12, 13 (all good).
Checked EVERY fuse on the entire car and all seem to be in order.
Have included some pics of engine and trunk (and something totally different in clay).
trunk area (black cable is the wiring harness for my trailer)
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/04/171.jpg
engine bay
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/04/172.jpg
For a needed break - a cat in a tux (like the car, a work in progress)
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/04/173.jpg
At a loss as to continue.
Paul Woods
23-04-2009, 07:16
It sounds to me like an ECU failure, if there is power going to it and all earths are intact but there is no CEL then it sounds dead
Ouch... I did not understand what burned up on the defrogger, but more importantly - can't understand what might have killed the ECU from there. It sounds like a dead ECU, but still... how?
Paul Woods
23-04-2009, 18:00
I really have no idea, but if the ECU has all of its 12v power supplies and its earths it should be powering up and lighting the CEL.
Marksman
23-04-2009, 18:32
Paul remember the 3SGTE live wire up? All power OK at ECU but no CEL? Down to a missing earth on the intake manifold... I know we're talking V6 here but wonder if a similar earthing failure has occurred especially as there has been a major short in the system recently.
Just a thought.
Owen.
Paul Woods
23-04-2009, 18:43
True owen but i am assuming because he has already checked the earths on E7 13,24,26 that it has the necessary paths.
Just in case try earthing the main W/B wire that is about 18" up the loom from the ECU,you will have to unwrap the loom to find it but its there with a rubber end on it, earth that just in case owens right.
Will give this a try. have just acquired a A/T ECU today, but will try the earthiing, grounding, etc. first, before plugging this A/T ECU to see if it lights up the CEL (but will disconnect, unfuse everything in sight before. Will post the results either tomorrow or early next week (work on the weekend).
(the part that burnt up was a "stanley" something or other, so who knows what affect it had or for that matter what wires were running into it - to be determined very quickly)
thanks for the suggestions
Will give this a try. have just acquired a A/T ECU today, but will try the earthiing, grounding, etc. first, before plugging this A/T ECU to see if it lights up the CEL (but will disconnect, unfuse everything in sight before. Will post the results either tomorrow or early next week (work on the weekend).
(the part that burnt up was a "stanley" something or other, so who knows what affect it had or for that matter what wires were running into it - to be determined very quickly)
thanks for the suggestions
That "Stanley" item you speak of sounds like a rectifier of sorts (sure i had one on my old Yamaha DT175) .
Are you getting a Battery light on the dash with ign on ?
All lights (exc. CEL) are on with ignition switch on. Will tackle the "short" in the "defogger" system tomorrow.
Found the W/B wire that is connected to two grey wires and a w/b wire about 12 - 14 inches from the ECU in the camry loom. No change when grounded.
Have my original ECU (from this car) and an ECU from another Camry that I will use in this situation. Installed both of these ECU's into my running Camry and both illuminate the "Check engine" emblem on the dash - which tells me that both ECU's are still functional.
Cleaned all contact points of the five ground wires coming off the engine, and the contact points with the body.
Will go over my log of all previous changes to the car prior to this problem to see if I have inadvertantly fixed one thing at the expense of another.
HAVE LOCKED AWAY all blunt force instruments - hammers, big screw drivers, crescent wrenches, the 3/4 inch drive socket set, crow bar - behind a COMBINATION LOCK (when i lose my temper i forget all numbers until the "vent" session is over). A 100 amp "frustration" circuit breaker of sorts.
Nothing to report right now NDR 008 - my work schedule is weekends thru Wed., but will keep you posted with any changes both positive or ... this week. At least no body damage.
:confused: Prior to this problem:
1. Wired up a new radio: spliced power from a constant power source (remote key sensor? in side of instrument panel below wiper switch); ground is straight to frame; speaker wires as colour coded)
2. this particular car does NOT have A/C, or any A/C switches: since my radiator fan does not function automatically, I cut the B/O wire at the RADIATOR FAN RELAY No. 1 and installed a manual switch into the dash - for power in this circuit, I converted the CDSFAN 30 A fuse (no change on the power side, cut the L/R wire on the other side of fuse (that goes to a CONDENSER FAN MOTOR) and used a 5 amp. fuse to protect this circuit. The cut L/R thick wire, within this harness array, was sealed off.
3. Though there are NO switches in the slots for A.C. FANNO.3 or A.C. FANNO.2, I cut the wire between them, thinking that if there is dirt or a contaminant within these contact areas, it might cause a short.
4. Have removed the plastic housing for lights, wipers, etc. a number of times but have tried to be very careful and I don't see any chafed wires.
$. Picked up two '94MX3 4 bolt 15 inch aluminum rims (~ 50% rubber, winter tires of course, , balanced and still held air) and installed as rear wheels. My confusion is creating enough doubt right now, ANYTHING may be causing my electrical problems.
:imslow: I have obviously done something wrong, but I do NOT know what. All suggestions appreciated as I will be working out in the snow (my ass there is global warming) and pulling out what little hair I have left.
Who needs sleep when one can read electrical manuals, wiring diagrams and circuitry blueprints - am amazed by electrical diagnosticians. A tremendous amount of information in the "electrical" forum - have been reading as much as possible between work hours, and will continue to absorb (to a point) and try to solve problems. Very confusing, but will prod along :banghead:
Paul Woods
29-04-2009, 07:12
If you ignore the cars electrics and just look at the ecu from a power in,earth and signals out perspective.... if it's getting batt permanent at pin 2 (4th plug), and ign live at pins 1,12 and 13 then it should be powered up.
I know you have checked for 12v on these wires but are there enough amps? try a 12v bulb on these pins and see if it lights the bulb, it could be showing 12v on a degraded or melted wire but not enough amps to light a fart :) just a thought.
Paul: that is actually highly likely, if the 12V have been checked with a volt meter, that is unlikely to be indicative.
Better yet, if you can somehow turn IGN on and then put your volt meter across the 12V terminals to the ECU and check then - with the ECU connected (and supposedly) draining the current - if the voltage is still 12V or has it dropped.
Ok, had a quick check with an EMS technician and engineer. They also suggested doing the opposite - disconnecting the ECU while checking the 12V supplies, apparntly sometimes a 12V supply, but it is actually a low current feedback through the ECU - having said that, I saw this on an engine I am testing via the VVT OCV Valve powering up the ECU (even though no 12V was hooked up to the ECU), so weird stuff does happen inside the ECU like that.
Also - due to my lack of experience on that particular engine and ECU - are there any built in immobiliser functions?
here are the results of the various tests.
tested again - grounding the #4 pin lights up the CEL
(n/c = no change)
Checking with a 12 volt bulb:
Pin #1 : lights up
Pin # 12: lights up
Pin #13: lights up
First Test:a volt meter across a light circuit (All ECU connections unplugged))
Starting voltage: 11.81 v (Ign on)
with #7 (26 pin) plugged in only: n/c
with #8 (16 pin) plugged in also: n/c
with #9 (12 pin) plugged in also: n/c
with #10(22 pin) plugged in also: voltage drop is .02v (from 11.81 to 11.79)
Second Test: volt meter across a light circuit (All ECU connections inserted)
Starting voltage: 11.83 v (Ign on)
with #7 (26 pin) removed : n/c
with #8 (16 pin) also removed : n/c
with #9 (12 pin) also removed : n/c
with #10(22 pin) also removed (none connected) : n/c
obviously with no results, my methodology comes under question. Again, i ran a my volt meter testers across a light circuit (one touching the positive and one touching the negative) and took readings from this.
Was thinking of checking the grounds by: running one side of the bulb tester from the battery positive and the other (negative) end touching the various ground pins in the ECU connections. I will try this method tomorrow UNLESS you think it UNWISE.
I have a suspicion now - either i am a twit :redface: with a volt meter or it sounds like ground to the ECU is incomplete? Just realized now that my ECU was not bolted up to the firewall - but was laying on the carpet in the trunk - make a difference? If so, will redo all tests with ECU bolted up tomorrow
Paul Woods
30-04-2009, 06:52
What about pin 2? the Green/white wire? that needs to have 12v Batt permanent on it.
ECU Plug #10 pin #2 - BATT - constant power: good - lights up the test bulb.
To test the ground connections as listed in ECU TERMINAL guide: on test bulb, ran power (+) wire straight from battery terminal, with probe (-) as the test ground
Results:
E7 - #13 - lights up
E7 - #24 - lights up
E7 - #26 - lights up
E9 - no listings for any grounds
E10 - no listings for any grounds
E8 - #9 (listed as "sensor ground") - NO READING, NO LIGHT
Will try to track where this brown ground wire originates.:fingersx:
Any news - I am guessing that fixed it because it sounds like that's your problem.
no (thanks for asking though). Will use a different wiring loom (Tuesday) - and if not successful, THE SLEDGEHAMMER
Everything still the same. Rechecked all pins for power, ground etc. - all seem correct. Installed ECU into a running Camry - everything runs properly. still at a loss -
Inspected harness, and dash wiring for any signs of problems - nothing. Tracked wires from/to "defogger" switch for burnt wires, grounding wires that might affect other wires - nothing. Still, when this (pic following) is plugged in and the "defog" switch is activated, this starts to smoke. In the wiring diagram, there is a branch off to the "idle up circuit". Would this affect the CEL light?
On the back of this "relay/switch" is a diagram that I have copied onto the white paper at the top of the pic. I don't know what these mean and if they would have any affect on CEL or any other function. Anyone know about this "relay" , or ANY other circuit that may affect the CEL operation away from the ECU and its direct wiring circuits? (eg. a feed to the Fan circuit affects the tail lights, lighter, or my quickly melting brain?)
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/05/51.jpg
sent email, hope u received it. if not, here is two more pics .
After some research, the piece has two Diode diagrams on the back of the plastic piece. Located above the driver side (pass. side in England) fuse box, taped to the wiring bundle. Seems like standard equipment connected to the "defog" wiring system. Still don't understand if this would affect the CEL system.
thanks for the help.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/05/52.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/05/53.jpg
That's a diode pack for the idle-up system, should have 4 wires going to it
1-black
2-black
3-black
4-green
1 & 2 are for the defogger
3 & 4 are for the rear lights
The normal reason for a diode to start smoking is too high a current passing through it. Assuming you no longer have the idle-up VSV in the engine bay ( I don't suppose the V6 uses it ) I wonder if you have inadvertantly shorted the black wire that went to the VSV to ground ?
It would have been a 2 pin green plug located below the battery area near the reversing light connector. Should have 1 black wire and 1 white/black wire. On the original MK1 wiring the black wire would also have been connected to the ECU through the N1 connector.
Yes – diode packs. Thanks jimi for recognizing and pointing these out.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/05/128.jpg
Looking at the Haynes schematics (see pic), there is nothing, but inspection of an involved MR2 schematic (as located here on TB) they become obvious. There are 3 or 4 of these packs throughout the car.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/05/129.jpg
Prior to this information, I ripped apart the dash, inspected the various wire bundles looking for shorts (burnt wiring, chaffed wires, hot wires, etc.) but nothing.
With this new information, I decided to look for my problems from the engine compartment back. So, I put all the wiring bundles, instrument cluster, dash plastic back together (so that this would be a non factor in tracing etc.). Insulated all the bundles near any metal openings or any place that could cause a problem. DID NOT REPLACE THE DIODE PACK, but did put in good fuses in both “defog” and “tail” slots.
Bolted up the ECU, put in the plugs and GOT READY to look for my problem. Hooked up the battery and turned the key.
The best/WORST possible result: I now have a glowing “CEL” light. Problem is – I didn’t FIX anything. Didn’t solder up any wires, didn’t cut any wires, didn’t tape closed any ends! INADVERTENTLY FIXED IT NOW.
Damn – now what? Believe it is fixed and drive around in constant fear of a repeat, or trace the untraceable. As you guys say – SHIITE.:nuts: :wierd2:
Marksman
11-05-2009, 06:37
When you say you "didn't replace the diode pack" do you mean you didn't swap it out for a good one or that you didn't refit it to the car and it runs OK without it?
Cheers,
Owen.
By "didn't replace the diode pack", i meant that I did not reinstall/refit the pack (the pack looks damaged around the pins, so I left it in the house). The CEL light comes on without the diode pack. Also, i turned on the lights which worked without burning out the "tailight" fuse (had previous) and with a little prayer, hit the "defog" button. The fuse remained good but the little light inside the button did not come on. Was just happy enough that the fuse and all the lights, including the CEL remained on. i just realized i didn't check the defogger whether working or not.
Will fire up the engine tomorrow morning, try the different switches and relay the results.
Glad my info helped. :cool:
Okay. the magical/monstrous moment again - turn that key to "start". :pray:
And - it started!
And ran as it did before.
No " defog" though, but everything else seems to be in order. Will go thru and over everything again tomorrow.
if i don't seem elated, the truth is simple/difficult at the same time.
Truth is: whatever it was that created this nightmare has been partially remedied - not fixed as i did not "fix" anything. :hmm: This leaves an element of doubt in the car. Will continue to search for this ...
However, I have learned to read these electrical blueprints somewhat (everything is connected to everything else), and developed a healthy respect for electrical engineers and especially electrical problem solvers.
Thanks to everyone for your knowledge and your suggestions.
I know the feeling well. When I get a chance I'll have another look through the drawings and see if I can come up with any suspects.
You could do one thing, if you still have the diode pack you took out and you have a multimeter ? With meter set to resistance (ohms) test between pins 1 & 2 on the diode pack, record the reading you get then reverse the meter leads (i.e. if you had the red lead to pin 1 put it to pin 2 and same with the black lead) and test again, record that reading. Repeat these two tests on pins 3 & 4 and post up the results of all 4 tests.
Pins # across from each other (1,2 then below 3,4) on the k ohms
Readings:
1 > 2 = 122.5 // 2 > 1 = 126.3
3 > 4 = 1.2 // 4 > 3 = 1.2
These readings do not look good, if I understand what a diode does (a one way gate?)
Depends a lot on the meter those readings do look a bit odd though, does your meter have a diode check position ? (usually indicated by a diode symbol) I'm trying to figure out if the diodes are OK and if they are not is that the cause or result of the problem.
here is a pic of my tester at the setting i used for the tests. Hope this helps, if not, i can redo at a different setting.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/05/158.jpg
The position above the kohms is the diode.
Had to walk away for awhile (toooo close to the "don't give a s*** anymore - where's the hammer). Feel like the kid sitting on the "throne" as the parade is going by outside - the summer is flying by and I have a POS problem sitting in the garage.
Anyway - asking for any thoughts.
Did some stuff to try to solve:
a. Ran a dedicated wire directly from the N1 plug to the CEL light in the dash - now when ECU terminal W is grounded CEL light comes ON.
b. Ran a dedicated wire directly from the Pin #24 (4th ECU Plug "D") to the LH side intake manifold ground (and an extra wire off the block connected also)
c.Ran a Jumper cable from the block directly to the negative post on the battery.
d.Did both ohm and voltage check on the #24 pin itself in the plug - good on both readings
e. Have THREE ECU's (2 M/T and 1 A/T - ALL function properly as I put them into my daily driver Camry and everything normal)
e. Kicked the f***ing tires just for good measure.
NO CEL WHEN IGNITION TURNED TO FULL ON
Just want to pass on a "thank you" to the following people for all your suggestions when we talked over the phone:
Bill S. in Virginia and good luck with your construction from the ground up
Rudy and Steve in Calgary - honest dirt handshakes are the best
Bill in Kelowna - not to worry, it was MY dime :blabla: - and yes, will post only relevant messages as we all have hair pulling worries in our lives.
To all - will continue "the test" with the latest to follow tonight.
Update: After buying two new (if 1992 anything can be considered new) harnesses from v6 camrys, I used a dead engine for guidance and rewired up both harnesses. Checked each and every wire from fusebox on, before continuing.
Changes in wiring routine: used larger guage wire for both the b/o and b/r wires (not the 14-16) and ran them thru the firewall nearest the fusebox.
A cursory inspection revealed some crimped and burnt wires in one old harness - possibly from the way I installed the harness through the new firewall holes.
However, my NEW FAVORITE COLOUR IS YELLOW! Amazing we all cringe when the CEL light comes on - but in my case? YES!!! I have the dreaded CEL light!!! TWICE!!! What a beautiful colour!!! :jump::jump:
Monday, July 12, 2010: D.O.T inspection - passed. Insurance granted/paid. License and registration obtained - car is now legal to drive on the street. Went out for my first extended "road test" - 148 kms. :biggrin:
YEEEEEEEHAWWWWWW !!! What a ride!!!
Good news mate! Have a blast and dont crash :)
Quick update for those thinking about an MR2V6 as a daily driver in the cold.
Drove this car all winter (snow tires all round), routine maintenance and since this is a JDM engine, no block heater (no matter there was no problem starting at - 30C). Was worried about heat in the cabin in the winter, but defrost worked well and was warm after normal temp. was reached.
Other than being stuck in some BIG snowdrifts, the car handled very well in the snow and ice. Once the rear end broke free - WHOA - that is a new experience even for an experienced winter driver.
If anyone needs a recommendation about building an MR2V6 DD for both winter and summer - this is it.
final note: I don't drive easy nor too hard. That being said, after ~10,000 km. my gas mileage was: 9.6 km per litre driving in city; 15.6 km per litre on the highway (averaging 120-130 kmph). Were new plugs and wires, distr. cap and rotor - Timing @ 15BTDC and no change to the AFM wheel.
Did I mention it is still great fun to drive? Still is!!
good job man!, is 27-43 mpg for us u.k folk, pretty well good for a 3L . i have done only 200km since i started recently, loved every second pinned to the chair. you think it would make a difference if you tuned the afm wheel? and why 15 btdc and not the standard ten?
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