BC coilovers

[Stu]

anyone know if these are any good?:

http://bc-racing.co.uk/vehicle-check.asp?manID=13&modID=98

[Jim-SR]

if i had to hazard a guess based on price alone, id go with probably not. theres just no way youre going to get a high quality product for £650, you can barely even get Koni inserts and ground control sleeves for that. id imagine they probably rate similarly to D2/KSports.

but without seeing damper graphs and seeing a set in the flesh to inspect the quality of construction it is difficult to tell. they claim that every damper is dyno tested in house, so maybe worth emailing them to get some graphs! post them up and il tell you if theyre any good or not.

[Jim-SR]

dyno graphs attached. they are made in Taiwan, so that doesnt fill me with confidence. its always a tell-tale sign when a damper is made in China or Taiwan that cost was the major factor. they may have been designed in Europe or the USA, but judging by the sketchy translation on all the literature I've read I'm guessing they were designed in Taiwan as well. which doesn't necessarily mean they aren't any good, but it makes it much more likely.

so far as the damping graphs go, I'm not convinced that they have bump adjustment, its more likely to be rebound adjustment. which would mean that the graphs are upside down (I'm waiting to hear back for confirmation). if that is the case then these are much the same as all the other Chinese dampers on the market (D2, F2, Ksport, etc), and pretty much the same as all the Japanese spec dampers on the market as well (Tein, Apexi, HKS, etc). too much rebound force and not enough bump force where it matters, and stiff on spring rate

these however are an improvement on the D2's. those lacked any bump force at all and were just loaded with rebound, on stiff springs. these are reasonably soft on front spring rate (280 lbs/in), but overly stiff on rear spring rate (450 lbs/in). but at least they have a little bump force in them (nowhere near enough)! if you wound the adjusters (supposedly they have 30 clicks) to full soft i would reckon they could probably work reasonably well for fast road and trackday use, but youve got an adjustment range that goes from just about bearable on the road, upto completely unbearable in any situation, so its barely worth having it. they are too stiff on rebound in the first place

on the other hand, if the graphs are conventional and positive forces indicate bump (i doubt it somehow), then youve got the exact same rebound front and rear, despite very different spring rates. this is going to result in the back end bouncing around considerably, and the front too i would think but not as bad. and an extremely harsh ride in all situations due to excessive bump force combined with excessive spring rate

my overall opinion of these dampers is that they are just about the same as D2's, with a similar price tag, similar characteristics, probably similar build quality as well. but they might be ever so slightly better in damping and spring rate. they are most definitely aimed at the budget Japanese performance market as an alternative to the likes of D2, at a cheaper price than Tein and such like. arguably they are probably worth £650 a set, but dont expect them to outperform Koni's, im fairly confident that they wont

[Stu]

wow nice one Jim,thanks

I'll stick with my Koni's then.

[Jim-SR]

if youve got Konis already then dont even consider them! you got Ground Control sleeves on there as well?

[loadswine]

Your description applies to the way my Teins feel on my Mk3. I would much rather have a decent damper quality and forgo the adjustment, which I never use in practice. The "ride height" adjustment is also poor with the Tein SS, as you are compressing the spring and reducing its travel to achieve that height.
You're convincing me that I need to think about better quality suspension for mine Jim. :thumbsup:

[Jim-SR]

all coilovers have that problem with ride height adjustment though unless theyve got adjustable lower ears (and most of the dampers that do are low quality elsewhere lol). obviously lowering a car on the spring platforms means you sacrifice bump stroke and gain droop stroke. the only way around that is to decide on where you want your cars ride height at the majority of the time and have dampers built to a specific length to suit that ride height (or modify existing dampers where possible).

you could definitely get some higher quality suspension for your mk3, but as always, it comes down to expense. quality costs a minimum of £1700 in my experience ;)

[nikwills]

Jim - what are ground control sleeves? I've recently had a v6 conversion, I've got spax lowewring springs/std dampers at the mo which I'm not entirely happy with, local EAS quoted me £580 for a set of konis for my mk1, I've read lots on this site about different springs currently supplied with koni sets, how do I know I'm getting the right ones???
cheers Nik

[Jim-SR]

ground control sleeves are basically a threaded sleeve that sits on the standard Toyota strut casings to give you coilover spring adjustment. they come with Eibach universal springs and the top mounting cups as well so that you can easily change spring rate to any of the other universal springs on the market (most likely to be 2.5" diameter). they cost $400 from the US for all the hardware and springs

there are then some cheaper copy versions available with cheaper springs that arent as high quality, but do a similar job.

with regards Konis, they have come with different springs over the years, you basically get whatever they are using now. im not sure there is too much difference in rates between the various brands. they are all soft enough for road, but probably too soft for any type track use. £580 is full retail price, you can get them cheaper than that (£390!).

if you arent in a desperate rush though and can hold on for a couple of weeks, i am trying to put together some deals to sell revalved Konis and coilover conversion kits as a package at as competitive a price as i can manage. which would be useful in your circumstances to compensate for the additional weight and power of the V6 conversion!

[nikwills]

Hi Jim, cheers for the response, I can wait for a few weeks to see what you can come up with, in the meantime I'm hoping to aquire and fit a mk2 turbo arb to the back end.

Also in the process of drawing up a rear strut brace which will fit over the V6.

It sits quite low on the spax springs could this upset the steering geometry, there is about an inch gap between the top of the tyre and bottom of the wheel arch? It has mk3 alloys 185/55/15 front and 205/50/15 rears. With this set up the handling etc was really good with the 1.6 but the extra weight/power makes it "feel" a bit unstable at speed, almost as if the front is lifting making the steering feel light and the back end as though it has a slight snaking effect if that makes sense,
regards Nik

[hmmmmm]

Great info on the coils Jim :thumbsup: Ive been thinking about my setup and after a lot of research i also came to the conclusion that the whole D2/Ksport range is just not up to standard. Havent decided what i want under my mk2, i prefer the bilsteins over the konis but ofcourse price is also a factor..

[Jim-SR]

if youve got a mk2 then find some Ohlins! they bolt straight on so its not even an issue. everything is servicable, at a price. i found mine on ebay in practically brand new condition (literally fitted, not used, and the car was stuck on a boat from Japan) for less than £200 delivered. ive seen several sets sell since, never for more than £300, a friend picked up a set for £100 because 1 of the 4 was bent. we chopped them about and he made a pair to fit the front of his mk2 VW Golf!!!

even if they need servicing, a full service (including a revalve which would be free whilst the damper is apart, which they dont really need on the MR2 sets, but could still benefit a little) is about £80/damper labour depending on where you go, and anything from £10-100 per damper in parts depending on how bad they are. worse case scenario youd pay £1000, and thats quite unlikely if you know what to look for

luckily, i know what to look for! the problems they sometimes suffer are corroded tubes, sloppy bushes, and leaking seals. the strut is an upside down macpherson insert, meaning the shaft is inside the case and hidden, and the insert body sticks out the top, and is chrome plated. the chrome can chip if hit by stones, if there is a chip in the chrome it messes the bushes up, and replacing the tubes is more expensive than finding a new set. leaking shaft seals are VERY rare on macpherson inserts because the case is sealed and there really isnt any way for dirt to get past the grease and onto the shaft in order to make it leak. if they are leaking its about £80 for the seal kit which does 2 dampers, and they can be hard to get hold of at times. and the sloppy bush issue refers to the bushes that the insert slides up and down in inside the case. they wear over time and this leads to play in the strut. they are replaceable and cost about £20 per damper.

basically, if you were to ever buy a set simply check the chrome that you can see to ensure there is no damage to it whatsoever (discolouration from wear isnt a problem, only breaks in the surface, such as chips, cracks, or excessive wear that you can actually feel - if its still smooth it isnt a problem). try to wobble the chrome part side to side in the case and there shouldnt be any play whatsoever when using your bare hands to do it (consider how much side loading a car applies to it!! if it moves by hand, the bushes need replacing), and finally make sure that there arent any signs of oil leakage.

if there are none of those above issues then the dampers are likely in perfect working order and useable as is. then they ideally want checking every 12-18 months or 10,000 miles (whichever comes first). if you get them checked regularly and the grease replaced in the cases then they will likely never need a service. its people who mistreat them and dont maintain them that experience problems later, and a large service bill!

you can also get them brand new from Japan, i beleive a few UK companies import them. they cost something like £1600 or thereabouts, but the new ones are fixed spring platforms only i beleive, there was a coilover version available in the past and these are the ones you really want. for a mk2 OR a mk1 (they are convertable with minimal effort by someone with the tools and knowledge to do it)

[Barronmr]

So are we saying the D2 are not good at all or are more suited the smoother trackwork. The reason I ask is because I currently have D2's fitted to the mk1.6SC but they are pretty unfriendly for road use.

My other option is koni's with groundcontrol stuff, I already have the GC coilover kit sat in my garden on stock toyota struts.

I was thinking of keeping the GC stuff for the road and the D2 for the track.

[hmmmmm]

Tnx for the info, very complete :thumbsup:

Did a quick search on ebay but no luck yet, found this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyota-Aristo-JZS147-Lexus-GS300-Ohlins-Shocks-Springs_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1171Q7c66 Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c2 93Q3a2Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZ item370145747586QQitemZ370145747586QQptZMotorsQ5fC arQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

But they are $450 witch 2 dampers leaking.. And i need them shipped to holland, including the rebuild thats going to be over $1000.. Thats more then new konis incl shocks..

[Jim-SR]

those ones wont fit an MR2 anyway. the ones you need are specifically for an SW20 MR2. there arent any on there at present, and doesnt look like there has been in the last month or so. they do pop up time to time though. people import cars with them already fitted and sell them on not knowing what they are, or the importers sell all the trick bits on and refit standard stuff to sell the car as a standard example. i keep my eyes peeled for them anyway, if any pop up il let you know

barronmr... GC's and Konis are definitely the way forward for road use. im not sure that the D2's will prove to be any better on track though than they are on the road. they are designed as a road spec, and are badly valved. for track use they just lack the bump force to ever really work that well. for track days though they wont be too bad. if youre looking for fun and enjoyment and not searching for tenths of a second (e.g. not racing or time trialling) then they will feel firm enough to pound round a track all day i should think. plus youve got the ride height adjustment. they arent ultimately fast though, it depends what you use the car for

[Barronmr]

and are badly valved. for track use they just lack the bump force to ever really work that well. for track days though they wont be too bad.

Could they be re-valved? Its just the strut itself looks to offer more adjustment than the GC - koni setup does.

[Jim-SR]

probably can. there is a guy in the US who owns a company that deals in dampers who is going to dyno test a set and see what can be done with them, there has been discussion on the US MR2OC boards for the past week or so about it. theres no reason why they cant be revalved, ive seen schematics for them and cut-through pictures in the past and they can be fully stripped down. its just a question of parts, but im sure they use fairly standard stuff. that would go most of the way to solving their issues, however there is a lot more to a good damper than just the valving and characteristics. the dynamics of the damping are equally as important (friction, stiction, responses to lateral shaft loadings, pressure response, hysteresis, resistance to oil cavitation, temperature sensitivity, etc, etc) which tend to be where the cheaper dampers let themselves down (and understandably really, the development and quality of engineering involved in improving those areas will only ever send the price north).

but for road and track day use im sure the D2's can be made to work to a decent level of performance. id be willing to pull a set apart at some point, but at present dont have access to a dyno so it would render it more difficult to find a good base spec, and to see how the dampers work on the whole. that situation may change shortly though, and if it does i will definitely find some D2's to have a proper look at!

[nikwills]

Hi Jim, any idea on a time frame for the koni revalve idea of yours? Is there any possability of giving me an idea of rough cost, cheers Nik