View Full Version : is 5SFE swap Brutal enough?
So I have had a project MKI 3sgte swap which I swapped off for some needed cash and space before I finished it. I have a 20v MKI and now I am trying to build an ultra budget MKI for the 24 hours of Lemons (http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/) (If you don't know about it, read up, it is a nuts!)
As the 3sgte was cost prohibitive and people are giving away 5sfe's after their swaps I picked one up. Is a 5sfe "brutal" enough for the site? The car is going on a SERIOUS weight loss program and will hopefully have some impressive power to weight numbers (home made body panels, windows and interior fully deleted etc) If it is acceptable I would love to share with the results with this community. If the car survives the race, my plan is to try to acquire a beams engine to take the place of the 5sfe and then run the car in SCCA dmod auto-x.
The car will be weighed and dynoed when complete so I can publish some power to weight numbers.
GregHoon
29-12-2008, 14:54
If you manage to get the car seriously down in weight then i'd definitely be interested. The performance is all down to the power to weight ratio so i think weight reduction is the way forward for people like me. Along with a few engine tweeks.
If you are prepared to document the work you do with before and after weights etc then people will lap it up. I don't think you're the first person to swap in a 5sfe to a mk1. Have a search :)
Gary Symons
29-12-2008, 15:30
:welcome: to TB :thumbsup:
I too would be interested to see how much weight can be lost.
Paul Woods
29-12-2008, 17:27
I agree,go for it,any engine conversion fits right in here,ive heard of the US folk bolting the 3sgte head onto a 5sfe block and running the turbo creating a 5s-gte..... now that is brutal!
GregHoon
29-12-2008, 17:51
That sounds like a good idea fitting the turbo on. How much time do you have to get the work done before the competition. I had a quick look through it. Says the vehicle must be bought for $500 or less? Have i got that right?
Greg
Jiff Lemon
29-12-2008, 20:52
its an endurance race, so what you want is something thats reliable.
I think it's going to be a nice combination to be honest. Plenty of weight can come out of a mk1, and then a nice torquey 2.2 lump? Think it'd be an very nice combination!
I take it you're over in the states, we only had the 3S-FE 2.0 litre here :-( Its got some nice low down grunt though it runs out of puff at the top end, taking off the Cat makes a huge difference. It'll be ideal for endurance racing as my old 3SFE managed 22mpg round anglesey all day long.
The reliability and fuel efficiency were motivators behind not trying to use a questionable 3sgte.
The 5sfe in the 1995 trim should be good for 135 hp at the crank breathing in and out through stock emissions. With filter and header I am hopeful that I will recover any power lost to the many miles on the motor. I will take my camera when I go to fetch the car. If nothing else it has a very brutal stance on its Japanese Ebay coil overs and home made semi-central exit exhaust.
If the chassis survives, I have a line on a beams motor I might like to try for SCCA racing. Displacement droop get me into a better category and it makes almost stock 3sgte numbers.
I take it you're over in the states, we only had the 3S-FE 2.0 litre here :-( Its got some nice low down grunt though it runs out of puff at the top end, taking off the Cat makes a huge difference. It'll be ideal for endurance racing as my old 3SFE managed 22mpg round anglesey all day long.
What engine's in the 2.2 U.K. camrys?
That's the 5SFE IIRC mate.
Good bottom end to put the 3S head on! Cheap stroker I guess lol
That's a fair point Jonas.
Any ideas how strong the 5SFE block and pistons are?
Hope Gary's readin this.
robwsurf
01-01-2009, 19:12
would that block work to build a 3sgte hybrid with 2.2
Think that's what Woodsy said the 'mericans do.
Block makes a good stroker, but the 5s pistons don't like boost too much. Makes a nice built motor with a gte head.
Got some pics to share.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/01/7.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/01/8.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/01/9.jpg
Its a bit of a quick and dirty job. We have a month and a budget of $500 for all car expenses other than safety gear (cage, seats and brakes).
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/01/10.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/01/11.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/01/12.jpg
Cut the rear bulkhead out since it was inconvenient and is not needed on a race car. The cage will be tied into the struts and should give back some strength if any was lost from that tiny bit of sheet metal.
You can see that we left plenty of room to try other engines later (Beams or 3 liter v6 are my choices).
Ran around it it a bit today. It is fairly brutal. It has power to weight ratio to make it a proper track car. I am not sure how hefty it is with the cage in it. I think it is close to 900kg. (hope I got the conversion right) Maybe it is close on the light side. There is not much left of the MKI. I forgot my camera today, I will try to get some pictures of it running soon.
peterguk
01-02-2009, 11:10
what engine's in the 2.2 u.k. Camrys?
5s-fe
Got it up on the dyno.
128.3 RWHP and 144 RWTq Not 100% sure how to convert from American measures of power, so lets just say that is close to what I would expect from an umodified 6 at the wheels in terms of torque, but it falls of in the HP category. It has only a header, exhaust and a cone filter on a seasoned motor (>150k miles)
Weight, with full cage is right at 900kgs. Should be a hoot on the track!
Great news! Let us know how you get on at the track! :)
The car is the balls on the track!
It drives like a rally car. Stellar turn in, easy to modulate throttle over steer, loads of torque.
With the light weight and the street tires, we did not manage to get any fade in the stock brakes, even though at one point they were smoking in the pit during a driver swap!
This is surely a great swap for the MKI owner who is very handy but on a tight budget. I will hopefully have a low dollar 1mz to compare to shortly, but for now, the 5sfe is (IMHO) BRUTAL!
Marksman
14-02-2009, 06:46
Now that's what we like to hear :praise2:
Bloody well done that man.
Owen.
semtexcow
14-02-2009, 13:59
sounds awesome :)
when youve got 5mins, maybe when filling up lol
can you take some pictures of it, the details on weight saving would be great info
im trying to decide if to strip mine to save weight, but its such a comfy interior its a hard choice
We stripped everything to drop weight. The only things we still have are the instrument cluster, ac controls with heater core for defroster and wipers. No headlights, no glass, cut the sunroof out and replaced it with a fg panel. We added a very substantial cage, but we lost the hood and deck lids in favor of a composite home made pieces, fender liners are gone, no signals, gutted the doors, including cutting out the US impact bars.
What we left in: Glass windshield (safety and convenience), defroster and wipers (work with the glass windshield), bumpers (we will be using it for wheel to wheel racing and though we wanted some margin of impact protection from light rubbing) cage (its a real race car and we did not skimp here ANY, except that the passenger side has a single nascar style bar, but since we will not have a passenger when racing, only when doing "track days" it seemed adequate)
So could the car be lighter, yes. By how much? Maybe 150kg, but that would really be a push and would mean no cage, no bumpers and less forward visibility/all weather capability. I will get some pictures of it when it is prepped for the lemons race. Looks nice. Has some spyder wheels on it and is slammed low. Looks pretty tough. I also think you guys will like my home made GT40 style hood with real functioning ram air and the lip splitter a la AR Cuda'. Pics to follow this week. Maybe even some videos!
How about some video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvKf3ZcswvM
You can see that there is a lot of oversteer. We are trying to get a better sway bar balance. Oddly I like to drive it like a rally car. Reminds me of my days in the modified 930 I used to run on the track. That car had a twitchy back end.
With more tire, we got a better balance front to rear. We ran the event and had some issues that we should have been more proactive about (bakes and cooling). Not flaws in the system, but we had a street level of preparation, not a racing level of prep. Next time we should be ready. We spent a couple of hours in the grid area working out problems. Everything from a complete brake job (should have been done prior to the race) to resecuring a coolant line bleeding the system and drying out the wiring harness (spring clamp was not good enough) to replacing a radiator (holed by a rock, we were running no screen or shield).
Sadly we had an irresponsible driver on the team who on the checkered lap took the car through a tire barrier and did some pretty serious damage. It mostly avoided the functional elements of the car, but will be costly and time consuming to get it ready for the track again.
Jiff Lemon
06-03-2009, 08:52
Sounds like a fun day all in all! You going to do it again next year?
pics???? :)
We have videos of the racing. I have not had time to post them.
Did you want to see the car before or after the race/wreckage?
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