View Full Version : Can't make my damn mind up!
Originally I was heading down the 3sgte route. Thing is, I owned a rev2 tubby before the MK1 and although I enjoyed the big lump of boost it didn't help my confidence when exiting corners. The thing I enjoy most about my MK1 is it allows me to play about with the throttle mid-corner without being punishing. I couldn't imagine it being as useable with a kick of boost half way up the revs.
This is why I changed my mind to the V6. I'd imagine it to be a nice smooth torque delivery allowing for a much more controllable feel. Obviously I'd have to be more disciplined than with the 4age however the characteristic should be quite similar. Am I right in what I'm thinking?
Anyway, after doing a bit more research it seems that there's a lot more support behind the 3sgte. With more people having done it with more research being done. Am I right in thinking that the actual swap is a lot more straight forward than the V6? And also could work out being cheaper in the long run? Plus there's the fact that if I should want more power its a lot more accessible with the 3sgte. It just seems like the most sensible on paper.
My main worry is that I'll loose the confidence in the car from being something that is completely forgiving and enjoyable to something that is great fun in a straight line but has me shaking like a dog takin a shit in the corners.
Really don't want to make the wrong choice! :hmm:
you wont be dissapointed with a v6 mk1..:thumbsup:
i find my mk1.5 still pretty forgiving and controllable when pushing over the limit..the mk1 chassis is a great starting point to any high power toy..
camrys are pretty easy to source and cheaper generally than 3sgte half cuts..the 3sgte is very easy to boost to higher levels with stock internals..
the v6 can have a sc slapped to it to give you comparible power levels to the 3sgte..
this thread will run and run with lots of good info so i will step aside..
i personally love the turbo nuttyness..
Right, bravado and banter aside...
from wot you've said the V6 will be for you if you plan on keeping it for a while and are prepared to work with it and improve it over time.
Murf's 3S has totally changed my mind on how the engine can deliver power when setup right.
But what i feel is that a sorted V6 will be the proper way to get the speed and power delivery you're looking for.
My main worry is that I'll loose the confidence in the car from being something that is completely forgiving and enjoyable to something that is great fun in a straight line but has me shaking like a dog takin a shit in the corners.
Yep that sounds about right for a mk1.5, but I find it kinda fun, sounds like you need the V6 if you're not man enough :gay:
TheGasMan
11-03-2008, 19:39
I was going to go down the Mark 1.6 route but then thought f*ck it, you only live once.. so ive got a 1.5 conversion booked for May / June sometime, whenever Paul can fit me in really.
Cant wait!
:driving: :driving:
snowtigger
11-03-2008, 19:46
why not become a big member then. i would think how u want to drive v6 lots of low down torque a tuneable to 240 ish bhp all the way up the rev range, 3sgte tuneable from 200 to 300 then u open your check book and throw loads of money at it and get wot ever power your hart desires, nothing like the boot in the back side of a turbo.
loadswine
11-03-2008, 21:13
I came at this from a slightly different angle. Its getting harder and harder to find places to really extend these sorts of cars , and I found that having a turbo before was fun, but only when I was really going some.
One of the reasons I went for the V6 was the noise. A four pot won't sound as good. So I don't have to always drive at really high speed to enjoy what Paul created for me.
Don't get me wrong though, it is quick as well.:cool:
snowtigger
11-03-2008, 21:18
On the subject of noise 4 pot turbo 440bhp or ferrari v8 with 440bhp .
S/C V6 with 440BHP.
Oh alright, the V8 lol
Cheers for all your input :thumbsup: . I am leaning towards the V6 but from what I can gather it's a lot easier to do the 3s conversion. How difficult is it to line up and manufacture the mounts on the V6 compared to the 3s? Also which one is easier to plumb and wire up, also connect exhausts? Can I use most of my current stainless system?
Only other thing I was thinking is that the rev3 tubby's had a more useable turbo didn't they? I could be tempted by that, however they do seem to come with a huge price tag!
As for noise, I found this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_PkswoXMx0 . This alone is tempting me toward the V6. Who's car is that? Sounds amazing!!
The only thing that makes the V6 the harder swap is you can't buy a whole unit engine box etc and slot it in.
The mounts etc take just as much fitting (See SWAT for pre-fabbed jobbies), and there's jigs for both.
The V6 requires you to find a box (prob Mk2N/A) get the flywheel machined, buy a mount off 4V6, do the HG's, fit a new induction kit, fit some sensors, make up new pipework, etc etc, there's a fair bit of work.
The Mk2 tubby you can buy as a clip and put in pretty much as is, still need to weld exhausts together and sort the wiring for both.
Once it's in there's less to connect up on the V6.
It's all about the noise and torque for me, although i see the attraction of the 1.5, boost is fun in a straight line. ;)
Ah, I saw there was a jig for the 3s but didn't know about the V6. I would definately want the LSD 'box, no matter which one I went for, so will start looking for one. I will keep flicking through the forum for more info, as its obvious there's a lot more to learn. Only other thing I was wondering is how easy is it to service them? I'd imagine the V6 to be a bit awkward to get around?
I think it's a case of which ever one I go for I will always wonder what the other would've been like. I have had a taste of the 3s in my MK2 which I loved but was let down by the handling, however the MK1 has much better handling. :hmm:
My head hurts! :doh: lol
V6 is jus as easy to service, especially if you have a hatch at the back to get at the plugs.
Good thing is with the V6 they run forever so shouldn't need serviced/repaired too often.
I'd go for N/A box with Mk3 LSD and Camry 5th gear, like Paul's doing, that's gotta be the best option on a V6, uber acceleration and a nice long cruising 5th gear.
loadswine
11-03-2008, 22:56
Definitely want a gearbox configured like that!
Marksman
11-03-2008, 23:42
Don't forget the V6 option has no intercooler to locate, or piping to route from turbo to intercooler so that bit's easy. It's also a less stressed engine in standard form and with the gaskets changed will run hapilly to 200K miles and beyond, less so with the 3SGTE. (Says the man doing a 3S swap.) Both swaps are doable so if it were me I'd ignore what was marginally easier and go for which ever engine suits your desires more.
Cheers,
Owen.
And get a drive in both if you can. :thumbsup:
Marksman
11-03-2008, 23:52
Or build one first and then the other one when the first is finished...
And get a drive in both if you can. :thumbsup:
lol offers?? :driving: lol . Nah it's more the handling side of things really. I've always said that the MK1 is perfect, it's just it's seriously lacking in power!
Don't forget the V6 option has no intercooler to locate, or piping to route from turbo to intercooler so that bit's easy. It's also a less stressed engine in standard form and with the gaskets changed will run hapilly to 200K miles and beyond, less so with the 3SGTE. (Says the man doing a 3S swap.) Both swaps are doable so if it were me I'd ignore what was marginally easier and go for which ever engine suits your desires more.
Cheers,
Owen.
Good point.
If mine is ever finished and you're in Glasgow, feel free. :mrgreen:
Marksman
12-03-2008, 00:02
Cut 'n' paste from a comment I made on an old thread:-
OK having all of 5 minutes experience of each I'll now pontificate like a know it all...
What's best, 3SGTE or V6? :hmm: the only answer to that that is really truthful is "one of each". If I could only have one then that's a pretty tough call. The turbo is pure mental plain and simple.
If I were to recommend a fast cruiser / daily driver that is also capable of serious twisty use then it has got to be the V6 hands down. It's easy to drive, has the smooth easy going torque of a long distance cruiser with no fuss at all but will turn into a monster when and only when you want it to. Oh and you can LPG it too.
If on the other hand you drive a mundano during the week and want a weekend MK1 then the tubby will put an insane grin on your face every time, so that's another easy choice. However stuck in a traffic jam it'd be easy to imagine being off boost and nothing happening then pressing the loud pedal just a slight tad more and ending up parked in the boot of the car in front. You really do need to concentrate to drive these things.
If you want a track car on the other hand then I'm not sure, I simply don't have enough experience to judge. (Which is a bitch as I'm most of the way through a 3SGTE track day car build.) I am concerned on the ease of drivability of the tubby when cornering on the limit. With the NA or 4agze the car is easy to balance and changes on the throttle are forgiven and it feels "nice". At this stage I'd think that to drive the tubby well takes more discipline and you'll have to modify your driving style to accommodate the characteristics of the engine. Damn rewarding and fast when mastered though I'd imagine.
The one type I can't wait to witness is the MK1 V6SC track car. I can see that as having seamless, linear, predictable power delivery that will just give the driver more and more confidence to extract even more from the chassis. That's not to say it'll be faster than the tubby round a track but I think it'll certainly be more forgiving and easier to drive. If we can develop a cheaper supercharger option then bring it on, that may well be where it's at for me. (Time to chop up my daily drive SC?)
Anyway that's more than enough drivel from me (especially as I'm not really qualified to judge, YET.)
Cheers,
Owen.
If mine is ever finished and you're in Glasgow, feel free.
I'm running a 205 at the roger alber clark rally in November. That's about as far north as I get this year lol. I hope to have mine finished by then though lol
Cheers Marksman. Some very good points there. :thumbsup:
This car is going to be a weekend/trackday car that is going to basically be a demo and have our company name on it. So I definately want something that's going to appeal. However it will still be my toy.
I like the point you made of the SC V6 potentially being a more useable track car. What supercharger is used? Are these hard to come by? I wonder if a Merc one would work from a C230 or a C32 AMG? Can't imagine them being cheap though.
snowtigger
12-03-2008, 08:47
have a look on the american forums solara guy about £1500, if u can find one although there maybe a alternative in the planning stages, a vortech and a few others personally i have been looking at 2 vw g60 or some state side ones, just u will need to make a fitting kit to plumb it all in.
I'm running a 205 at the roger alber clark rally in November. That's about as far north as I get this year lol. I hope to have mine finished by then though lol
You're a 205 boy aswell? Nice one. What's the spec on that?
What's the companuy aswell if you're into building race cars?
The one we are running is challenge spec. This is it at NW stages
http://www.photo-moto.co.uk/gallery/North_West/dsc_0372.jpg
We do have 2 others, one of which is another challenge car and the other has plans for Mi16 conversion. We also run a fiesta in the XR Challenge and are currently building a second.
The company is www.whartonmotorsport.co.uk website needs updating though. It is a fairly new buisiness that's pretty much devoted to clubman level motorsport for basically newbies. We will however be expanding.
have a look on the american forums solara guy about £1500, if u can find one although there maybe a alternative in the planning stages, a vortech and a few others personally i have been looking at 2 vw g60 or some state side ones, just u will need to make a fitting kit to plumb it all in.
Cheers. Yea it's the fitting that I'm wondering about. At the end of the day, It's always something that could be looked at later on. It's just good to know that the option is there :hmm:
This is TB, there's always a way. :thumbsup:
marcbowden
12-03-2008, 14:41
It was foxy stoat's, I forget who has it now. It was that clip that made me buy Paul W's Mk2 v6 demonstrator, now I want additional MR2s ...
As for noise, I found this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_PkswoXMx0 . This alone is tempting me toward the V6. Who's car is that? Sounds amazing!!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.