View Full Version : Mk1 to mk2 brake conversion?
sixafterfour
13-11-2007, 07:29
Hey guys, I've been thinking about this for a little bit. We really have limited choices when it comes to brake upgrades. We have to machine rotors and do alot of modification.
So i was thinking, is it possible to convert everything over to the mk2 brakes?
that would change our bolt pattern to a more aftermarket friendly pattern
And that would also allow us to get even larger brakes.
Paul Woods
13-11-2007, 07:57
st165 twin pot celica brakes are the same spec as mk2 brakes and are a direct fit onto a mk1,no mods at all,they just bolt on.
Mk2 rear calipers also fit a mk1 and allow a vented disc on the rear
snowtigger
13-11-2007, 18:12
do u need the hubs of a mk2 then
Paul Woods
13-11-2007, 18:25
nope,the celica brakes bolt straight on as do mk2 rears but mk2 rear calipers need a different disc
Marksman
13-11-2007, 21:02
If you do go this route on the rears then be very specific when you order the disks. For some reason many seem to be a multi fit type with two different 5 stud PDCs , which leaves us no room to drill our own wxtra 4x100. I mailed a supplier and asked specifically only to be assured they only had one set of holes and was still sent the wrong ones :slap:
Happy braking,
Owen.
Which MK2 calipers will fit a MK1, do you need the carriers as well ? and does the handbrake still connect up OK ? I remember reading about someone ( blowed if I can remember where I read it, one of the "land down under " forums I think ) with MK2 calipers on the rear, using MK1 front disc's + a spacer behind the disc to centre it, IIRC they had to use longer studs. Anyone any idea what other studs fit ? Sounds like the kind of brake upgrade I would like, might help to balance the front/rear bias more to my liking, I've always found it quite easy to lock the fronts. Any other probs with this ? Is the standard master cylinder up to it ?
sixafterfour
14-11-2007, 04:10
Im also leaning towards changing the bolt pattern
the celica brake upgrade would keep result in the same bolt pattern wouldnt it?
i would really like to change the bolt pattern.
sweet92turbo
14-11-2007, 05:47
how much of an upgrade are the St 165 compared to the Stock MK1 brakes. It seems like if you don't increase the rotor size at all then your not really accomplishing much but creating more heat.
Oh no, the ST165's are a huge gain over the standard brakes.
Back to back testing they were taking about a 3rd off the stopping distances.
rattymr2
14-11-2007, 13:41
the ST165 caliper is a two piston opposed caliper as opposed to the single piston sliding caliper that the mk1 is. this give more even brake pressure on the disk. this caliper runs with the standard mk1b disc and is the cheapest upgrade. It works very well too and you can run standard wheels with it.
the rear mk2 caliper is a rev 2 onwards with the 22v mark on it. you use a corrado G60 front disc with this and space out the disc to fit it to the mk1 hub.
the rear mk2 caliper is a rev 2 onwards with the 22v mark on it. you use a corrado G60 front disc with this and space out the disc to fit it to the mk1 hub.
For the corrado disc you need to modify (cut and weld) the carrier to cater for the larger diameter.
The easy mod is, any mk2 two rear caliper is a straight fit using the corresponding Mk2 rear brake disc, only needs the 4x100 pcd drilled in it.
sweet92turbo
14-11-2007, 15:32
wow I guess the st165 does make a pretty big difference. If I have an MK1a then I would just need MK1b caliper brackets and rotors and it would be a direct bolt on right?
weegaz22
14-11-2007, 15:48
Oh no, the ST165's are a huge gain over the standard brakes.
Back to back testing they were taking about a 3rd off the stopping distances.
a third is huge, if you were doing 70 thats 300 ish feet total stopping distance, thats you knocking 100 ish feet off your distance
and when they said back to back was that on knackered old discs and pads with partially seized caliper sliders, old fluid vs new discs, new pads and 165 calipers with new fluid?
Aye, think they were possibly mk1a brakes before but they were trully awfull.
Got the ST165's on the V6 though and am very confident of their abilities. They'll stop it fine.
Marksman
14-11-2007, 16:47
If I have an MK1a then I would just need MK1b caliper brackets and rotors and it would be a direct bolt on right?
No need for the mk1b calliper brackets as you'll be using the ST165 gubbins, you do need the MK1b disks though.
O.S.
Cheap rear brake upgrade tip ( but only if you've upgraded the fronts first ) is to remove the valve from inside the brake bias valve. In the standard setup this limits valve the hydraulic pressure to the rear brakes, ensuring the fronts lockup first.
Removing the guts from the valve means the rear brakes get the same pressure as the fronts
Good shout Mart, i'll give that one a go. :thumbsup:
Is this with the standard master cylinder too?
Is this with the standard master cylinder too?
Yep :thumbsup:
sweet92turbo
15-11-2007, 01:21
OlberJ, so you put ST165 front calipers and MK1b front rotors on your MK1a and needed no other parts for the conversion? Can you use the ST165 rears as well?
Full ST165 front brakes, discs, pads, carriers the lot, bolts straight up.
sixafterfour
17-11-2007, 22:36
Well this isn't really what i was getting at... but what i wanted to do is change the bolt pattern.
Anyone do this? ive heard things about swapping the mk1 wheel hubs with mk2 wheel hubs
Removing the guts from the valve means the rear brakes get the same pressure as the fronts
....... Maybe a bias adjuster replacing the valve rather than gutting the valve and leaving it uncontrolled? Then you can tune the distribution back and fore for optimal braking and controlled lockup, rather than run the risk of locking the rears up first and spinning the car.
Six, I've heard of the mk2 hubs being swapped before but can't find a link to it at the moment. I'm sure someone'll be along with the link soon though :) It may be a lot of work though, I think I remember someone saying something about it being a welding job on the hubs, but I could be wrong. I'm looking at the ST165 setup in the future, it's easier to hide under stock wheels rotflmao
lodgeman
18-11-2007, 18:33
from what i remember you will have to remove the splined hubs and have them machined down to fit into the mk1 bearings.
lodgeman
18-11-2007, 23:39
or you could buy these?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-to-5-LUG-ADAPTERS-4x100-108mm-5x4-5-114-3mm_W0QQitemZ140180855923QQihZ004QQcategoryZ122154 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
sixafterfour
19-11-2007, 00:04
those look scary... but how are you suppose to mount a different rotor onto it?
Joshstix
19-11-2007, 05:52
This is my rear setup with full SW20 reaar nuckles gen3 SW20 calipers on spacer brackets and 324x22mm RX8 sport front rotors. It is a hell of a lot of work and most likely more than can be sanely viewed as being worthwhile, but who exactly is sane around here?
http://users.tpg.com.au/joshaw11/sw11/P1000717.JPG
http://users.tpg.com.au/joshaw11/sw11/P1000720.JPG
sixafterfour
19-11-2007, 07:19
That looks AWESOME!
wow man! really good!
And so all you need was the knuckles, no modifcation at all? besides the brakes bracket?
That looks like a good setup for the rears for sure!
Joshstix
19-11-2007, 07:32
That looks AWESOME!
wow man! really good!
And so all you need was the knuckles, no modifcation at all? besides the brakes bracket?
That looks like a good setup for the rears for sure!
It is a hell of a lot of work and most likely more than can be sanely viewed as being worthwhile, but who exactly is sane around here?
I had to move the LCA pivot out fab new inner pivot points for the toe control arms a long way inboard, fab correct length toe control arms etc etc.
Paul Woods
19-11-2007, 07:45
josh thats a superb rear brake upgrade,id something very similar planned with a bmw 330d rear disc but i might just use the mazda one now as the hat height looks better.
One question though...all the modification to get the mk2 hubs to work,wouldnt it have been ten times easier just to insert the mk2 stub axle into the mk1 hub carrier? that would give you the five lug conversion and also the thicker mk2 CV spline for a lot less work no?
sixafterfour
19-11-2007, 07:48
Paul, bill strong has been thinking about doing that too. The problem he is having is that the mk2 spline apparently has to be modified. or something along those lines. im still looking up on this.
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=253407&page=2&pp=30&highlight=hubs
snowtigger
19-11-2007, 19:44
some one get the man size cleenex that looks fkin amazing i was also looking at 4 to five stud and bigger brakes front and rear they look amazing how u getting on with the front brake upgrade paul.
Paul Woods
19-11-2007, 19:49
the fronts are sorted snowy....porsche 996 four pot calipers and beemer 330d 325mm discs :thumbsup:
snowtigger
19-11-2007, 20:03
will we be getting a price for this conversion and pics as well cause that sounds well nice dude will talk at the crimbo bash over a pint or two.
Joshstix
19-11-2007, 23:32
The problem with putting the SW20 hubs into the AW11 carriers is that the splined shaft for the turbo hubs is significantly bigger than the AW11 shaft and if you turn the hub down enough to get into the AW11 hub it will not be strong enough. Take a look at the hub carrier section of the AW11 and SW20 uprights and you'll see that the SW20 piece is a FAR larger part.
I thought about a hell of a lot of options for getting a good 5x114.3 hub into the back and always came back to putting in a hub and carrier unit that was meant to work together from the factory, mostly for reliability and safety reasons.
Those RX8 rotors have a nice small hat height. I was wrong on the dimensions though they're actually 320x24mm and just fit into the gen3 SW20 calipers that are made for 22mm rotors.
When you extended the mk2 gen3 rear caliper did you have a problem with the rotor hitting the bracket? also suppose you can get me the hat height on those. i've been looking for a larger rotor thats close to spec w/ the gen3 rear
The problem with putting the SW20 hubs into the AW11 carriers is that the splined shaft for the turbo hubs is significantly bigger than the AW11 shaft and if you turn the hub down enough to get into the AW11 hub it will not be strong enough. Take a look at the hub carrier section of the AW11 and SW20 uprights and you'll see that the SW20 piece is a FAR larger part.
I thought about a hell of a lot of options for getting a good 5x114.3 hub into the back and always came back to putting in a hub and carrier unit that was meant to work together from the factory, mostly for reliability and safety reasons.
Those RX8 rotors have a nice small hat height. I was wrong on the dimensions though they're actually 320x24mm and just fit into the gen3 SW20 calipers that are made for 22mm rotors.
the fronts are sorted snowy....porsche 996 four pot calipers and beemer 330d 325mm discs :thumbsup:
coolio, now sort out us mk2 owners :thumbsup:
they will work on the mk2 ... radial mounts y'see :)
nice brake upgrade, however i think you need to change calipers as the pad's contact area can be improved
you will loose the handbrake if you use a different caliper, only a few toyota uses that type. the rest has a drum or a drum/rotor combo
snowtigger
22-11-2007, 18:16
late avensis use a caliper brake setup on the rear not a drum and caliper dont no the rotor size though also if u are using turbo drive shafts with there cvs can u fit the rear hubs without any maching then to change it to the five bolt pattern or are the mk2 drive shafts too long for the mk1.
Joshstix
23-11-2007, 01:03
I'll try and cover all of the questions.
No the caliper doesn't interfere with the rotor, the bits I am using are the same as available from these guys http://www.global-z.com/toyota/sw20.htm. The overall hieght of the RX8 rotor is 46mm according to the DBA catalog.
Changing the caliper isn't really practical as these are the only calipers I know of with a built in hand brake that support such a wide rotor. The added braking force from extending further down the rotor would not be very significant anyway.
I am using complete SW20 turbo rear drive shafts in my setup. The problem is that the inner section of the hubs for the SW20 are a much larger diameter than those for the AW11. Therefore if you were to put SW20 hubs into an AW11 upright and bearings you would have to turn the hub down to the same size as the AW11 hub and there would be nowhere near enough material left for this to be a reliable part.
interesting how much was that converted? Im upgrading my rears but the handbrake aswell
heres a sneak peak ;)
http://www.clubneko.org/oteck/3MZ-FE/Brakes/hub%202.jpg
http://www.clubneko.org/oteck/3MZ-FE/Brakes/Is300%20rear%201.jpg
P.S. i only use toyota/lexus parts so all OEM for me
they will work on the mk2 ... radial mounts y'see :)
er do you have any links / pics and what about an upgrade for the rear and a good source of bigger master cylinders to retain pedal travel?
Paul's the man for that :)
have asked before but he's always busy fixing mk1's...... lol
Joshstix
25-11-2007, 23:06
interesting how much was that converted?
I assume you mean how much did it cost? I got the caliper brackets and centring rings from a guy in Melbourne who was having a run of them made for $250 and the rotors were $80 each. The rest of the parts I either had already from halfcuts or made from material around the place.
That's an interesting swap, but a solid rotor was not acceptable for what I was after. Good luck with it you'll definately have a much better hand brake than pretty much any otehr MR2 as long as the drum mechanism is solidly mounted. That's an interesting swap.
these are vented actually but they are like 18mm unlike the gen3s 22mm
http://www.clubneko.org/oteck/3MZ-FE/Brakes/Is300%20rear%202.jpg
Joshstix
26-11-2007, 23:44
Ah fair enough. I can see the vent in the original picture as well now. Are they ST205 parts?
MKIV supra actualy. i wouldn't touch the st205 hub because they are rare and they don't use 114.3 lug pattern. it's not a good pattern since your very limited on what rotors you can use. I've been talking to a few alltrac guys and they wish they had our bolt pattern. finding rotors was hard enough for them that they want to change the lug pattern
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