View Full Version : Help Help Help!!!
Sponge Bob
07-03-2007, 10:47
Last night I put a single pipe between the turbo and inlet manifold in my quest for trying to get a tasty 11psi...
Started it up, and it was just making chuff chuff noises - not really starting... I realised that I'd left the large hose which attaches to the BOV from the main air duct pipe off so I covered that up to stop the air leaking.
The engine started this time, but it was making this metallic high(ish) pitch twanging noise - a very resonant and reverberated noise which I couldn't locate... then the engine chuffed out and died.
Tried again to start and it made more metallic twanging noises... then a horrific death grind sound which conked the engine out immediatley.
I didn't try and turn it over again after that noise; it still haunts me at the moment :( someone help!!!
Initial thoughts are that something mechanical has gone in either the gearbox or block. I've not really driven the car so I couldn't have damaged anything driving... nor has anything changed since I did last take it up the road for a test... the grind noise was definitely something getting caught and just stopping the engine :( :( :(
Anyone have any thoughts whatsoever on what could have happened - where do I start fault finding, etc etc etc.
Thanks
Can you turn it over by hand ( socket on crank pulley bolt ) ?
Sponge Bob
07-03-2007, 11:33
Will try that tonight matey - good call...
millentubby
07-03-2007, 12:00
Have you perhaps dropped a tool into the inlet manifold?
Awwwwww bumflaps mate! Metallic twanging and grinding can't be positive things :(
Jiff Lemon
07-03-2007, 12:10
Can you turn it over by hand ( socket on crank pulley bolt ) ?
Plugs out too.
Nothing been sucked in? belts all in place? Fluid levels all good?
if there is/was no noise in neutral then its unlikely a gearbox problem if car was not moving. check you can select all the gears cleanly.
whatever you had to hold your I/c pipes on check you have each piece. I can't see it bieng anything big as it wouldn't get past the inlet ports!, if that was the case.
check the compressor side of the turbo for broken blades.
then turn it over by crank nut as said to see what you can hear..
metallic rattling noises aren't always bad.. recently my flywheel coverplate was getting hit by the flywheel each time it went round. therecwas no way you could have identified the noise.. thing is.. the noise dissapeared after it wore out that small piece of metal .. but I was convinced it stopped when it had warmed up.. things can throw you easily, be cautious to.
Sponge Bob
07-03-2007, 14:48
Thanks for the responses guys - nothing has been taken into the system as far as I am aware - I covered up the turbo & inlets incase bugs crawled in etc...
If I was to try and place the sound, then I would have said around the clutch/starter area... so maybe it is just the starter that's playing up?
Will take a few things off tonight and try a hand crank. It's a real b*stard to happen just as I was nearing the end of turbo testing... I was having a bad evening already with it and could sense something was going to go wrong!! should have walked away from the car :(
give your starter motor a few knocks with a hammer!.. if it stays engaged it makes a rattley whiring noise, if you heard crunching I would be inclined to take off the gearbox cover plate and see if there are any broken bits sitting at bottom of bellhousing, its easy enough to take off, 5 or 6 bolts or something.
superchargedsam
07-03-2007, 15:19
Will take a few things off tonight and try a hand wank
Ash sorry to hear about your woes fella, but surely you would be better off trying to sort your car than doing the above!
:hidesbehi
:fruit:
My starter motor was the only thing I ever fixed! I'd get a horrible clicking metallic noise, and it was due to a dodgy engine earth.
Could be something to check? Usually, I believe the rev counter goes a tad mental if it's the engine earth.
Paul Woods
07-03-2007, 19:12
i cant really add anything to what the guys have said ash.....fingers crossed its just the damn starter....
I think Paul is now redundant ....
*hides a bit*
Paul Woods
08-03-2007, 06:31
do i get a gold watch or anything?
I'm sure we can arrange for Owen to give you a golden shower?
Sponge Bob
08-03-2007, 09:19
The fact that the engine wasn't starting very well doesn't fill me with confidence!!
Haven't had a chance to sort things out yet, as going away for a week on Saturday - probably not a good idea to go without at least having a check; be worrying about it all holiday otherwise!!! lol
Thanks people - cranking and checking the starter will be my first port of call... and Sam - you should try a foot crank!! ;)
my 3sgte starter went tits up after a few starts after the swap..whipped it off and took it apart..gave it a little service and its been fine ever since..used to make a nasty whining sound and clunk as it wasnt disengaging either..
fingers crossed..:fingersx:
Sponge Bob
08-03-2007, 11:20
Cheers Nik... :)
Sponge Bob
08-03-2007, 19:18
Right - well I tried turning the engine by hand - and that was fine... so I tried starting the engine with the plugs out - and it seemed to crank ok for a while - so I don't think that there's anything wrong with the actual engine.
However - I put the plugs back in and when I got the gf in to help crank the engine (behave Sam) - I noticed a massive spark from the block to the car body just before the engine started to try and fire up.
So!!! It cranks ok, but then when the engine gets a sniff of firing - it makes horrible noises and dies immediately...
Does this mean starter is knackered for sure?? Please god (or any of you demi-gods) tell me that...!
Sounds more like an engine earth fault to me if there are sparks coming off the block
Indeed, i'd try grounding it with a temporary cable and see what happens.
sounding better :).. there defo shouldnt be large sparks in the bay so that has to be half if not all your problem.. as folks have said what kind of earths do you have from engine to block and such like?.. what cable did you use?..ive had thin earths melt inside sheaths before! . i used battery cable to earth for this build from gearbox to chasis.
Jiff Lemon
09-03-2007, 01:08
bob bob bob.....
Repeat after me. I shall make multiple engine earths, with at least one going from as close to the starter to a good body earth before even attempting to crank the car over again.
Hopefully if I'm not working this weekend I may be able to pop over (heck I could do with the timing light back!) and lend a hand.
bob bob bob, bugger bugger bugger...
You've been at Nik's weed. lol
Sponge Bob
09-03-2007, 09:21
I did check my earth cables, and they seemed ok - but I shall strap a few more on and clench my buttocks tightly as I turn it over again...
If you have a multi-meter put it on 20v put one probe on the engine and one to the body (battery neg is ideal but body will do for a 2) crank the engine if you see more than .5 of a volt your engine earth is no good also try body to battery neg post .
Sponge Bob
25-03-2007, 19:05
:(
no luck... I just can't sort out what's wrong with my car... :( and I was so close to trying with full zoom.
I've added engine earths and the car cranks ok, but it seems that the starter gets stuck (makes that clicky sound as if trying to start on a dead batt) whenever the car is about to start, and kills everything dead. I've tried bump starting today to see if eliminating using the starter would help, but it still made the clicky sound and crunched to a halt.
I took the starter off and tested it - all seems fine, I separately tested the magnetic switch, and it worked fine as my guess was that the switch wasn't disengaging the starter after firing - but no luck at all.
So if the starter seems ok, and the engine cranks (with no dodgy sounds) then what could be wrong - or perhaps the starter is knackered - how do I test whether it is actually getting a signal to stop cranking when it fires... that could be the problem? But then it would have bump-started... bah HELP!!
Paul Woods
25-03-2007, 19:18
ash,hook a test bulb up to the starter energiser wire,thats the one that runs from the B/W wire on your M2 connector to the starter solenoid,so one wire on your test bulb to this wire and the other to earth,then you will be able to watch the cranking signal come and go when you turn the key....and of course it should go out when you stop cranking or the engine starts.
can you get another starter from someone to test if thats the problem?.
if you do find a problem with your starter go here;
'unit exchange'
168 aycliffe Rd
Borehamwood
Herts
0208 953 9971
they prolly wont have one on the shelf but will rebuild, and do a first class job.
Sponge Bob
27-03-2007, 13:25
Hmm - well i'm convinced that it must be the starter from the various sounds I've been getting, and what's happened, so does anyone have one for sale??
Paul Woods
27-03-2007, 19:15
or failing that a camry one is the same :thumbsup:
Jiff Lemon
27-03-2007, 22:12
The weak point on these starters (coming from a man who used to rebuild them for a living) are the solonoid contacts. They live behind the little house shaped plate on the back.
3 screws and you can lift out the contact plunger - Renewal is a little tricky (requiring a deft bit of soldering) but not beyond the means of anyone on here. Oh and a set of contacts is about £10.
When they're on their last legs you'll get clicking noises (plunger engaging but not enough "meat" on the contacts to hold it down.)
If I ever get time (highly unlikely) I'll do a photo strip down of one.
Sponge Bob
28-03-2007, 10:18
Hey 4v - i've sent you a pm.
Jiffster, I did remove the 3 small bolts and check out the magnetic switchy bits, and it seemed ok. I also wanged the battery onto it for a second and it clicked out & in, but as you say, may be enough on there to move while not under pressure, but not enough to work properly.
My fingers are crossed that changing the starter will work... as if it doesn't, i'm fresh out of ideas!!!!
Thanks for all the advice guys, mucho appreciato!!
Jiff Lemon
28-03-2007, 10:53
One other thing bob - Is the battery good?
You can get similar problems with a buggered battery.
Sponge Bob
29-03-2007, 08:46
Battery is fine matey, it's not just making a clicky sound of a dead'n, it's making a metallic crunchy sound which stops the engine in its tracks... I'll give a new starter a try and see what happens.
Also, I put a multimeter on the block and body and I saw no voltage on cranking - is this right, or should I at least see something?
Jiff Lemon
29-03-2007, 09:26
Ok quick and simple battery/charging tests to do with a multimeter:
1) Check Voltage with everything off - Should be above 12.2v
2) Check voltage during cranking - Shouldn't go below 11v
3) Check voltage between negative terminal on battery and engine during cranking/engine running - Shouldn't be above 0.5v - Ideally it should be 0v
4) Check voltage between postive terminal on battery and starter - Again, should be zero as close to it during cranking.
5) Check voltage between positive terminal and alternator postive terminal. Shouldn't be above 0.5v - Ideally it should be 0v
Sponge Bob
02-04-2007, 17:19
GAH!!
Tried new starter - no luck... :( still being a complete twat
Will take some multi-meter readings tonight off the solenoid thingy to see if that works ok, but i'm getting towards the end of my tether now... why would it go from working fine, to just being a complete bstard!!!!!
Jiff Lemon
02-04-2007, 17:25
well, If I can get the tank sorted this weekend and my little bro isn't scheduled to visit me with his welding equipment, I shall wander over and have looksie.
How about a video/sound recording for us to ponder over?
Ash are the battery terminal clean/on tight?
what's happening now you have a new starter on ash?
Paul Woods
03-04-2007, 07:03
spoke to ash last night,theres more going on here than a starter problem....apparently theres a big spark,yes spark! that jumps between engine and chassis around the alternator area during cranking...ive never heard of this before,anyone? ive asked him to unplug the alternator and try cranking again to see what happens.
I take it that the alternator casing hasn't become electrically isolated from the block somehow ?
Sponge Bob
03-04-2007, 09:35
I tried taking off the alternator plugs - re-cranked and it didn't change anything - same thing happening!!
However, I then went to the boot and snipped the engine bay fan wire - just in case this was earthing or something... went to retry it, and it now just cranks - no sniff of starting!!??!! Rejoined the wire, and it's still just cranking!!
What the hell is going on????
Jiff Lemon
03-04-2007, 10:54
Ooooooooooooooo I so want to come over and have a looky at this bob.
Is it in your garage or do we have to suffer the elements and work outside?
does the engine/head/block have any extra grounding straps or such like..
maybe eliminating the abilility for it to arc will hilight a problem elsewhere..
superchargedsam
03-04-2007, 11:07
maybe eliminating the abilility for it to arc will hilight a problem elsewhere..
Ash grounds them all out and turns key and...:blowup:
interesting. the engine bay fans once again are evidenced to be somehow invloved with starting / not stopping issues. id love to know exactly wtf goes on with that circuit, which to my mind need have nothing to do anything else whatsoever
Sponge Bob
03-04-2007, 11:37
Hey Jiff - i'm in my cramped garage, so if it's sunny - the car can come out, if it's rainy, I get the glorious sound of rain as I work... lovely!
How are you fixed for Friday matey? It's the only day i'm not busy this bank holiday, although Monday is good too actually...
Nik - I placed a set of jump leads from body to bay to give two extra earths and it seems fine... I really don't know what on earth is going on - I think Tony's probably right - haunted!!
Jaemus, what experiences have you had with the fan circuits??
Jiff Lemon
03-04-2007, 12:09
PM me your Moby old chap - Mrs Bob is wise to the ways of the kettle I Presume?
Sponge Bob
03-04-2007, 13:17
PM'd you mate - she is indeed well versed in the way of the kettle... and incidentally is now officially destined to be Mrs. Bob!! :)
superchargedsam
03-04-2007, 13:41
PM'd you mate - she is indeed well versed in the way of the kettle... and incidentally is now officially destined to be Mrs. Bob!! :)
Singing mode on/
congratulations and exultations............................
/singing mode off thank fuck
Welll done Ash you wil...erm....wont regret it!
Congratulations mate. :thumbsup:
Jiff, you mite aswell take the 1.5 away with you when you're over there. lol
Jiff Lemon
03-04-2007, 14:19
Sad thing is, Its probably close to hitting the road than mine is!
Marksman
03-04-2007, 17:44
Don't let Mrs. Bob give you the pink mug...
Owen.
lodgeman
10-04-2007, 23:53
congratulations mr and mrs bob:thumbsup: lol
she is indeed well versed in the way of the kettle...
As she should be, it's in her job spec ;)
and incidentally is now officially destined to be Mrs. Bob!! :)
Ouch! Feeling for ya Matey......
........congrats Ash :thumbsup:
re: fans
in my case, with a mk2 and a 3VZ, whats currently happening is that when you leave the VENT relay in place, switch the key on, then off again, the FRONT fans start up and keep running with the key removed until you disconnect the battery. if you start the motor, when you switch the key off the motor will keep running, even if you disconnect the battery.
removing the VENT relay alleviates these problems, but i dunno if the front fans will work properly - still testing
but your situation is quite different, i doubt it has that much to do with what youre experiencing, but im interested to note that you cant start the car once you snipped the engine bay fan wire. imo the engine bay fan shouldnt have anything to do with starting or running!
Sponge Bob
11-04-2007, 09:06
TBH I don't think it was the actual severance of the fan wire which has now stopped the engine trying to start - but maybe it jogged something? Or just coincidence...
I haven't got a clue where to start fault finding? :( it's like my car has just suddenly become a grumpy old fuck and has now told me where to shove it!!
How do you test for a spark, is that a nail in the HT lead and then hold near the engine itself... what about fuel - how do you test whether it's spurting the good stuff in? (short of playing the hose pipe game with an injector!)
yep, a nail if you need to, hold it near something unpainted
with the injector, if you hold a flat blade screwdriver against it, preferably with a wooden handle, and put your ear to it, you can hear it clicking as it fires. you can also disconnect the fuel return line and put it in a bottle or some such while you run the fuel pump to make sure its pumping fuel.
Sponge Bob
13-04-2007, 21:42
With the Jiffmeister at my side, we battled away with the grumpy old bastard... and here is how the tale unfolds!!
First problem - why it wasn't cranking at all... now before people start pointing the finger, the fuse was only *just* broken - and only upon close inspection could you tell it was broken... :embarrased smilie:
So with that gem of a 'missing loom earth strap' problem out the way, there was now a spark at the king lead and it was back to where I was a few weeks back.
Well, we did a few basic tests, had a look around - tightened things up, etc and the sound which I thought was my engine imploding, didn't make Jiff cringe as much as me for some reason... however - turns out after inspecting the timing that somehow the belt had come a good 30 to 40 degrees out-of-line...? When the crank was at TDC, the tops of the cams were pointing towards the cabin... not towards the sky ???
Put it all back together, tried to fire and it was choking a bit - but started to come to life again... not brilliantly - but it started up a tad, running very very roughly on a couple of cylinders...
To cut a long story short, before we could play with the timing - the battery started to lose power...! lol so it's on charge and it's tea time at the Bob Mansion! Maybe in half an hour Bob & Jiff will be screaming up the road - but we'll see...
EDIT- also, what's the best way to set the timing without a light to a decent level?
Is it a non interference design ?:pray:
Paul Woods
13-04-2007, 21:51
all toyota engines are non hitters mart :thumbsup:
ash the only way is with a timing light im afraid matey.
excellent work guys.. looking forward to hearing more
Jiff Lemon
13-04-2007, 23:17
I can't believe he missed out the bit about the woooooof tests....
Damn fun that is! Have returned home to L'maison d'Jiff so that the battery can be fully charged for an afternoon of fun.
I'm guessing the problem that Bob was initially having was the Spark happening prior to TDC thus the piston was trying to blown down the bore on the up stroke.
Sponge Bob
13-04-2007, 23:23
Oh yeah - the old splint down the cylinder... that was fun!! :)
Cheers for the help Jiff... see you tomoz matey where we shall hopefully drive at some high boost levels!!!
Nice one gents! Glad progress is made.
What is it with you and earths lol
Ash are you guys sorted for a timming light?
Sponge Bob
14-04-2007, 14:50
Yeah thanks mate, got Jiff's here with us!!
Jiff Lemon
14-04-2007, 19:08
Ok, I'm pleased to report (but not half as pleased as Sponge bob is) that he's back up and running.
As bob has already pointed out, last night we redid the cambelt as the timing was a tad out....
http://www.zen38410.zen.co.uk/Temp/bob/In-out.JPG
http://www.zen38410.zen.co.uk/Temp/bob/Ex-out.JPG
So today, we wheeled the car out into the sunshine and started to crank her over on the freshly charged battery. She'd try and fire and at one point was running, but on what sounded like a single cylinder. Hmmmm, tweak of the timing methinks. As Bob cranked, I started to turn the dizzy as was dealt with one almighty HT zap. Wowzers, they sting....
So of came the cap and it soon became apparent just why I'd been zapped....
http://www.zen38410.zen.co.uk/Temp/bob/Cap1.JPG
http://www.zen38410.zen.co.uk/Temp/bob/Cap2.JPG
One of the screws that holds the dizzy cap in place had come loose and had rattled around the inside of the cap, causing a fair old bit of damage!
http://www.zen38410.zen.co.uk/Temp/bob/Rotor.JPG
Thankfully, young Bob had a spare dizzy so 10 minutes of spannering later and the engine burst into life in true toyota style. Quite tweak of the timing and it was time for a trip up the road.
Not good was the first report... Missing and a lack of boost. revert to the orginal plan (the plan that started this whole mission off!) - Intercooler bypass.
Hmmmmmm, the car seem to vanish up the road somewhat quicker that time... and upon its return, Mr Bob's grin pretty much confirmed that we'd made good progress!
Right Click and save as (http://www.zen38410.zen.co.uk/Temp/bob/SpongeBob.wmv)
He suspects its the BOV that was leaking but I'm nagging him to get a chargecooler..... But overall, a good day for TB :thumbsup:
Well done lads :thumbsup: Up and running
Paul Woods
14-04-2007, 20:29
good show lads,well done mr Jiff sah!
ah most excellent! great work jeff i bet ash is pleased as you say
:toke:
well done boys! great team effort there!
Marksman
15-04-2007, 10:38
Bloody good news chaps, couldn't be better :thumbsup:
What's next Ash?
O.S.
Great news bob... the exact same thing happened to my dizzy except the screws somehow made it out of the bottom of the dizzy and onto the gearbox whilst traveling down the motorway the car just cut out... that was the day before JAE!!!
Get a chargecooler.... you know it makes sense :)
Excellent fault finding, top work gents :thumbsup:
Is the car now fully sorted? Will it soon be zipping along those country roads around yours?
Sponge Bob
15-04-2007, 12:08
Well I cannot say how greatful I am to Jeff!! Some excellent fault finding done and a perfect result to the end of the day...
I'm certain that the BOV was faulty, due to the excess oil around it all the time - so that does mean I need a new one... but on the off-hand I have a great spare turbo lying around (which I thought had gone) incase something bad happens!!
Goldy, we did blow the nut out of the dizzy - it blew right out and nearly took the Jiffmeister out!! lol
The next step is getting a new BOV on and testing, and if all goes well (which it had better do) MOT time ready for some JAE and summer fun!!!
Be careful of those central reservations, they can catch you unaware ;)
superchargedsam
16-04-2007, 09:40
great news fellas!
Sponge Bob
16-04-2007, 13:29
Cheers Sam, and yes Jasp... they can matey... they probably come a bit faster now tho!!
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