Bought a Mk3, now what?

[Paul Woods]

I couldn't pass this one up, a local Mk3, mint bodywork, fantastic roof, full leather interior, all it has wrong is a knocking bottom end under load, so it will just need some bottom end shells i bet, perfectly quiet at idle, so i'd be willing to say it has no crank damage, it won't need a replacement engine, even if it did i wouldn't put the standard engine back in.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/01/211.jpg

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/01/212.jpg

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/01/213.jpg

Total cost £530 delivered to Woodsport, which is just pennies for something like this.

So what do i do with it? Throw in some shells and sell it? Engine conversion? Dare i say break it? Seems far far too good to break.

Suggestions please....

[gavsdavs]

Clean it up minimally, check it's mechanically sound, flog for 2 grand ?

[Paul Woods]

Possibly, i reckon it's only worth £1500 repaired, is there an engine swap people would like to see that hasn't been done?

Looking for possible inspiration..... or if i can't think of something i'll just repair it, i just think it might be a good chance to do something cool with one for not a lot of money.

The other problem is i'm putting 2grs into them all the time now, so i'm thinking outside the box...

[gavsdavs]

There are a few people looking to pickup mr2s converted, but I honestly don't think people will stump up the £10k you'd probably have to ask for it when converted (assuming a 2gr)
You can shift a good quality mk3 easily - and if it's good I'd say for more than £1500.

Or. Wankel engine from an rx7. That would be nuts.

[Paul Woods]

Hate Wanky engines, but you have a point about selling a converted car, it might be a better way to go...

[loadswine]

Let's see, a 2zz with mk2 converted exhaust manifold. They are supposed to be fun. How about a 2AR-FE, or maybe not easy to get hold of. A 1MZ with full tubular manifolds fabbed to fit the Mk3 , so a pattern for others to be made. A non Toyota V6 perhaps? A VW VR6, or maybe something daft like an Auris TDi 2.2 with remap, or tuning box, you'd have about 220 bhp and 360 or so lbft of torque.
Depends how much attention and time you could spare on it really Paul. The 2zz should be a quickish upgrade i reckon.

[Paul Woods]

Cheers Nige, some good suggestions there....

[Goldy]

Turbo 2ZZ? Don't you have a couple of mk1s to finish first?

[guitariste47]

2zz-ge with Rotrex supercharger please; if it works, we'll do it on my car !!!::icon_wink:

[MMaddict]

Why dont you make a speedboat out of it?

[GaryA]

How about electric motors :)

[snowtigger]

You won't like this but how about a d4d the 170bhp chipped for better power and fuel maybe 200bhp 6speed box good fuel economy, I know i would buy it if one was built and give it the other half.

It's never been done before as has a Prius hybrid mk3?

[OlberJ]

Make it handle and go like stink.

Subaru Impreza turbo lump.

[Star_69]

That's a serious bargain price. From the pic it has the rear chrome hardtop brackets. Does it have the rest of the fixings, as the kits go for around £200 for people wanting to retrofit a hardtop.

I reckon find a 2zz somewhere and a supercharger with an electronic clutch. Build it, then add a huge turbo for a compounded set up. It'd be worth it for the noise ;)

[cdwood2010]

I agree with the 'something different'.

Either some electric motors or a stupidly Eco engine like a modern small hatch or a diesel perhaps.

The times they are a changin' let's face it.

Eventually we will all be driving electric roller skates, so I'm all for making the most of petrol power until that day.

But in the meantime the bias is shifting, and I think you will sell an Eco friendly hybrid prototype way easier than anything else.

C.

[sketchy]

there is a kiwi fella with an electric sw20..gets a couple of hundred k on a charge too...

but Id rather just buy a hybrid. so I can justify keeping a car that wants to eat all the fuel in the developed world....

[Paff]

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/01/215.jpgfind a way :) http://www.gmmotorsport.com.au/products/LS3---6.2lt-Crate-Engine.html

[Deadly_Smell]

4 wheel drive, twin hayabusa engines (one each end)
but it probably can't be done

[Paul Woods]

Some pretty wild suggestions there! In two words, fuck diesel!

I'm a petrolhead, so whatever it gets will need to be petrol, like the impreza idea Olie....

No love for a 3s-gte anyone?

[Phaeton]

4 wheel drive, twin hayabusa engines (one each end)
but it probably can't be done

No likey, motorbike engine belong in, well motorbikes, no torque no reverse

Alan...

[Phaeton]

Some pretty wild suggestions there! In two words, fuck diesel!

I'm a petrolhead, so whatever it gets will need to be petrol, like the impreza idea Olie....

No love for a 3s-gte anyone?

Petrolhead you might but the diesel is a good suggestion, massive torque & would be a good driver. 3S-GTE would be a good option, but don't you want to use a slightly more modern engine in a modern car? But a 400BHP turbo would be fun.

Alan...

[loadswine]

Having tried a few variations of Roadster, the weight will make a difference to how the thing feels. A 3s-gte is nice, but a lot of work from what I've seen.
I wonder if a k20 Honda Engine would be viable, a few examples of this exist in the states. I know Honda units are tantamount to heresy here, but they would suit the Mk3 pretty well.
Something on the lines of a 3s-gte , but possibly lighter, how about a VAG unit? ( I don't know the comparative weight of both)
Are there any other V6s out there that have good power with a light-ish weight?

The 2zz has to be an easy , quick-ish swap with potential for a few customer examples , but how easy are the engines to get hold of? There are a fair number of Mk3 owners finding they have knackered engines these days, so something that paves the way for quick and easy-ish fix with an upgrade would appeal to them.

[Goldy]

Some pretty wild suggestions there! In two words, fuck diesel!

I'm a petrolhead, so whatever it gets will need to be petrol, like the impreza idea Olie....

No love for a 3s-gte anyone?

Aren't we missing the obvious 4 pot swap? Civic type R engine... mmmmmmm V-Tech!

[snowtigger]

On diesel have you seen the smoke screen out of some of the tuned ones at truck racing its hilarious.

Why not try goukys twin turbo ford lump idea it's like a 2gr engine, and could be another swop option in the future for other models and cars.

That way you can broaden and give a different option plus it has tuning options that look way better, I like the turbo 4 pots but not there reliability at big bhp unless you sink mega money into it, my mate built a cossie engine with the best of every thing for 14 thousand and it blew the head at 560bhp, and we all know bragging down the pub isn't the same as torque to the floor.

[Phaeton]

Aren't we missing the obvious 4 pot swap? Civic type R engine... mmmmmmm V-Tech!

1k no power 2k no power 3k no power 4k no power 5k no power 6k no power 7k I think I feel something 7.5k there it is let's go lairy. Great for the track but crap on the roads

Alan...

[OlberJ]

Impreza engine but swap the turbo for a super charger. That would make a fantastic swap.

[Star_69]

Make it 4WD :icon_wink:

[Spook]

Whats that ford V6 that gets twin turboed & modded to go in a Noble M12/400, that would be interesting if you want a challenge.

If your goal is to make something that would sell then an economical but nuts 4 pot from toyota would have a greater audience / buying pool in these hard times & summer coming.

Though myself I love some of Hondas power units, my mums Civic R engine & box combo is just a joy to drive and the NSX I had a go in was so bloody memorable. Though dont Hondas engines turn the opposite way.

3SGTE might have wide interest too, Id love it, but perhaps a bit same again for you, after a years driving I really rate Toyotas 3SGE engine, still want to V6 it but this will do for now.

[Paul Woods]

Is a Beams red top a good shout? None of the swap hassles of a full blown 3s-gte and no lag..... but then the argument would be why not just Camry V6 it and be done...

Fuck it i might just bang a new set of shells in it, it's doing my head in already lol

[Phaeton]

Or sell it to me for £535 & have some profit out of it.

Alan...

[Paul Woods]

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/01/217.jpg

[vinp182]

K20 turbo :)

[Spook]

didnt i see a thread for a rotrex supercharged beams somewhere....SW20 in malaysia

oooh
http://www.rotrex.com/Home/Supercharger_Experience/Details?kit_id=b89d9f8b-0988-4140-830b-3f4c9f8e86a9

sweet jesus, a 500 horse S2000 ought to be some kind of inspiration
http://www.rotrex.com/Home/Supercharger_Experience/Details?kit_id=a706fe79-9639-458a-8e3a-2730c66f208a

[guitariste47]

An airplane ?

[cdwood2010]

An airplane ?

Yeah, stick a WWII radial engine in it, nobody will have.....

Oh hang on.

:(

[Paul Woods]

Yeah, stick a WWII radial engine in it, nobody will have.....

Oh hang on.

:(

Photoshops from America don't count :)

[OlberJ]

Just agreed to buy another Mk2 cheap an all. It's silly season!

[Paul Woods]

What's the plans for it Olie?

[gavsdavs]

You won't like this but how about a d4d the 170bhp chipped for better power and fuel maybe 200bhp 6speed box good fuel economy, I know i would buy it if one was built and give it the other half.

I know it's heresy to suggest diesel - but this is an excellent idea.
- very easy driver, lots of torque
- very economic with mk3 weight to pull around
- Will probably be startlingly fast also due to weigh.

[Paul Woods]

I hate diesels with every fibre of my being.

[OlberJ]

What's the plans for it Olie?

It needs a new passenger front wing and a balljoint, not bad for 200bangers.

Going to strip it as light as I can, including an arse and nose chop, like an 037.

Undecided on the engine though.

[racerADS]

I hate diesels with every fibre of my being.

Devils fuel, completely agree. Supercharged 4 pot of your choice I think.

[cabbydave]

first thing you should do is get thosehard top fixings sold they are going for £200+ then put a 2zz super charged engine in it and flog it

[OlberJ]

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/01/218.jpg

Right, what we putting in them?

[Mk1bexwa]

Pete and I think you should lump in an M5 V10 and a Gallardo bodykit. Just to be different!! :)

Beckie

[Torero]

Actually Paul, it makes good business sense to put Jason's 2GR in it and sell it as a package for £10k or more. That way Jason gets his engine money, you get the money back on the engine swap and make a profit on the purchase price of the car as well.

As Becky mentioned, there has to be some kit car enthusiasts just screaming out for a turnkey that simply requires a bodykit. Maybe the guys at DNA would be interested.

[guitariste47]

I know it's heresy to suggest diesel - but this is an excellent idea.
- very easy driver, lots of torque
- very economic with mk3 weight to pull around
- Will probably be startlingly fast also due to weigh.And I really think diesel don't have torque; I can ride my 2 with the 2zz egine in 6th gear at 30 mph with no problem, but with my 2 l engine diesel, I will stall if I go in 4th at that speed, I have to shift down to 3rd , therefore less torque

[loadswine]

Diesel just has longer gearing, that's all. Commercially, I can't see too many buyers lining up for a prefacelift Roadster at £10k, even if it does have the dream package of the 2GR engine. A 2zz, however, might well have a few takers depending on price. I see an opportunity here for opening up some more Mk3 business in the future possibly. Mind you, that would be dependant on 2zz engine availability.
Personally I'd love to see the Honda K20 or equivalent swap done, as I haven't seen a single example in the UK of one yet. Never mind the torque, that engine would give a really nice Roadster!

[boondougal]

And I really think diesel don't have torque; I can ride my 2 with the 2zz egine in 6th gear at 30 mph with no problem, but with my 2 l engine diesel, I will stall if I go in 4th at that speed, I have to shift down to 3rd , therefore less torque

No torque? Need to come for a ride in my c320....

[cdwood2010]

Hell, take a ride in a Golf 2.0 GT TDi.

That engine is little monster.

C.

[Grenade]

Ok, when I first saw this post my initial reaction to the question "what do I do with it" was "Put a 6.1 Dodge hemi V8 in it. Sure, the trans would be difficult and the body & subframe would be all bespoke fabricated, but all this Toyota, Honda and Ford stuff, I mean if you put one of those Dodge monsters in it, it will gain more world wide recognition. Woodsport Hemi V8. Now that just sounds cool.


Ok, so the new 6.1's are too much money? I have a 5.7 Gen1 hemi V8 in my SUV and it's making close to 500hp with nothing but a few bolt ons. Forget hi revving turbos, this will pull a building off of it's foundation and spin all four tires in 4 wheel drive low range!

[GaryA]

As olber said a scooby lump was my first thought but the box might poke out the back a bit, also boxter lump other than that a k20 a will go to 240 with breathing mods and remap . Fiat twin air ... Sorry that is taking the piss

[Phaeton]

You could go completely mental will the Scooby fit up front & then make it 4wd LOL, I've always wondered if you could make a ST205/MR2 MK2 clearly a bonnet bulge would be required.

Alan...

[Paff]

LS series, please do it. I always wanted to but now I'm not in the country can't afford to do it :( Don't even care which LS it is lol

[Paff]

Phaeton, we have discussed in the past a st205 4wd mr2 but its a fuck of a lot of work if it's even possible

[Gouky]

i did just picked up a new motor, i know where i can score another one if you want one.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/01/225.jpg

gas turbine!

[Gouky]

what about the ford ecoboost series? either the 2.0L or the 3.5L

[Phaeton]

Phaeton, we have discussed in the past a st205 4wd mr2 but its a fuck of a lot of work if it's even possible

I will have a search interested in peoples views, but hell yes a lot of work.

Alan...

[Paff]

It's possible tho, anything is with enough money. Always comes down to the money.

[Paff]

Phaeton, save you a bit of work searching http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?16387-4wd&highlight=4+wheel+drive

[Diesel Meister]

Actually Paul, it makes good business sense to put Jason's 2GR in it and sell it as a package for £10k or more. That way Jason gets his engine money, you get the money back on the engine swap and make a profit on the purchase price of the car as well.

As Becky mentioned, there has to be some kit car enthusiasts just screaming out for a turnkey that simply requires a bodykit. Maybe the guys at DNA would be interested.

Sense at last!

The options here, in descending order according to the gospel of the enthusiast

1 - Full House 2GR Conversion (enjoy briefly before selling on for readies toward finishing the bloody V8...)
2 - 2zz conversion (with Rotrex for additional man-points - enjoy then disseminate)
3 - Tart-up-and-flog (give you readies towards something with more man-points)

Amen.

P.S. Happy 2013 Brutal Brethren!

[Paul Woods]

i did just picked up a new motor, i know where i can score another one if you want one.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/01/225.jpg

gas turbine!

You sir, are off your meds. :freak3:

[Diesel Meister]

Option zero - Frankenstein Motorworks :icon_lol:

[guitariste47]

Hell, take a ride in a Golf 2.0 GT TDi.

That engine is little monster.

C.
Yes but add a turbo on the 2zz and bye bye lol

[nu_york]

I say do a rare swap like an ar or az. Try something extreme. Hell even a bike engine sounds


SPYDERMAN

[knightrous]

A simple one, 2AZFE with a EA60 (Or is it EA62?) 6-speed swap :)

Otherwise, try something new, like dropping an EJ20/EJ25 boxer motor and gearbox. It would basically be a MR version of the new FT86 :) Low mounted boxer motor, mid mounted with a light weight chassis. Would definately be a world first!

[MMaddict]

i did just picked up a new motor, i know where i can score another one if you want one.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/01/225.jpg

gas turbine!

Could you PM some details about this? My dad might be interested in it!

[snowtigger]

What about the 2ar-fe engine ?

[Gouky]

the 2ar is pretty awesome, but do you guys get it over there?

the harder issue with the 2ar is that it was never available without immobilizer. so you *HAVE* to get all the stuff from the junkyard.

[loadswine]

So Paul, apart from the diesel aversion, do you have any ideas as to what you'd like to pop in there? 2zz swaps generate a bit of interest on ROC, but can you get the engines easily enough? I think the Honda k20 or Civic type R lump would work well, but not sure of the cost of that.
Any other new ones you have in your mind that we haven't thought of?

[Paul Woods]

Well i think i need to burst the engine swap bubble on this one, i dropped the bottom end off it today and one big end shell has gone, no crank damage at all, so all it needs to make it right is a set of shells.

I need to keep my sensible head on and just repair this one, if the crank had gone i would defo have done a swap on it.

Not very Brutal ay!

[Gouky]

damn.

[sketchy]

fix and flick is ok, if the money does actually make it to the project budget....

he needs to get on with the project wait list, not add to it just now anyway:P

I can only say that cause I sold one to work on the other more...

[hmmmmm]

http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//2b/53/2b53ffe9905dada9219366528773e56a.jpg












Just kidding,sensible choice i guess.

[loadswine]

Fair enough. I guess needs must.
Are the bores and rings okay? That is often where bother starts, rings get gummed up, bores go oval, oil consumption increases a lot, then it ends up with no oil and lunches itself.

[Paul Woods]

LOL at Family guy

That is the last consideration Nige, i replace the shells tomorrow so i will be able to tell if it's running "blue" or not, there was hardly any oil in the engine, and without sounding like a sexist pig, was formerly owned by a woman.... with breasts and everything.

So that means one of two scenarios....

1) It's using more oil than Phil does to get his wallet out of his back pocket ..... oval bores etc.... OR
2) It has suffered a womans servicing ritual, ie it gets oil when it starts making noises, a light comes on or her husband has the car serviced.

Now i realize my comments above could well get my testiclays removed by the female of the species, but fuck me if there isn't a man here that doesn't know what i'm talking about i'll be amazed!

[Torero]

Could you PM some details about this? My dad might be interested in it!
Lol, only on TB would you hear this and know it'a serious comment. Love it!!! :yelrotflmao::yelrotflmao::yelrotflmao:

[OlberJ]

I reckon you'll be amazingly lucky if it's just shells Paul, moreso if this is a pre-facelift?

[Paul Woods]

Yeah pre facelift, i'm thinking the same as you, oval bores which has ended up in lack of oil, it has 98k on the clock too, so it has to be an oil burner..... i'm holding out for a severe case of neglect though, we shall see.

[OlberJ]

Get a Ford V6 in there and one of Andy's RS200 kits :D

[loadswine]

You might just get lucky Paul. The 1zz does have a crank resonance issue that I've heard about from one of the TTE tech guys. It is around 4000 rpm apparently, which is said to be one of the reasons they went for a 6 speed in the facelift, to move revs at cruising speed away from that resonance.
Compression test should chuck up some clues once the bearing is fixed.

[snowtigger]

I like it fix it and sell it on £600 sounds like a deal PayPal do you lol.
I fancy an Lamborghini kit on this in kermit green or vomit orange.

[Infamous]

How much you talking for this after 2zz swap?:eusa_think:

[Paul Woods]

It looks like it won't be getting an engine swap just yet, i installed the new big end shells, no crank damage at all, and it fired up sweet with no problems at all. I let the engine get up to temp and there is not even a hint of blue smoke, it's totally clear, so up to now it looks like a severe case of neglect by the previous owner.

I'll reserve final judegment until it has been driven under load, it's still bad snow here, but good news so far.

[garyv6]

Seems like a good profit maker.

[Paul Woods]

I've been lucky with it up to now, tempted to keep it though as it's a really clean one.

[loadswine]

Did you do a compression test on it Paul? Just wondered how it had got so low on oil.

[Paul Woods]

I didn't get a chance today to compression test it Nige, i'll do that tomorrow. All Mk3 engines seem to use a little oil, i think it might just be a case of she drove it for a year or more without topping up.

The jury is still out though until i drive it under load, it could well bellow out plumes of blue under load.

[loadswine]

Some do a lot, some a little bit, some hardly any. Mine hasn't used any in a year though. Prolonged neglect is never too good for engine health though, so hopefully that's nailed it mate. :)

[Paul Woods]

Fingers crossed! Also i haven't been able to inpect the main bearings, that's a complete teardown to investigate.... so i'm hoping they survived better than the big end bearings did during the oil starvation.... but i've rarely seen mains go on a Toyota engine. It's cost me £75 in bearings and a few hours labour, i guess it will get its chance to work now, if there's any blue smoke though i'll yank the motor out, no way i'd ever pass it on knowing it was burning oil.

[Paul Woods]

Well bugger me, compressions all perfect, took it for a quick light load drive and it's totally smokeless.

Looks like a serious case of neglect over a long period of time.... people that abuse cars like that don't deserve to own them.

[gavsdavs]

Quick flog it before you get any new ideas !
:-)

[Paul Woods]

Problem is i like the bloody thing now, please mam can't i have one of each?

[Phaeton]

My offer of £535 still stands :yelrotflmao:

Alan...

[loadswine]

Great result Paul, maybe keep it for a little while, then flog it for even more when the weather gets warmer. They don't cost much to run and yes, they are a lot of fun! :)

[Paul Woods]

My offer of £535 still stands :yelrotflmao:

Alan...

I did say "deal" Alan, but you never got back to me to complete the sale, snooze you lose! lol

[Phaeton]

Drat, Drat & double Drat, didn't realise you were serious :rofl:

Alan..

[gavsdavs]

£536 ? :)

[snowtigger]

I said £600 but was ignored lol, and you have enough toys to play with you can only have it if you sell one of your other toys.

[Gouky]

somehow i'm doubting that Paul bought the only cheap & abused MKIII around. go collect them!

[Goldy]

somehow i'm doubting that Paul bought the only cheap & abused MKIII around. go collect them!

Yes but I haven't any skills to fix it...

£600 and a pack of hob nobs?

[Infamous]

£601 and a bag of haribo :eusa_whistle:

[Telecaster]

I hate diesels with every fibre of my being.

Here you go ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZNVF1F23oQ

[Telecaster]

Yeah pre facelift, i'm thinking the same as you, oval bores which has ended up in lack of oil, it has 98k on the clock too, so it has to be an oil burner..... i'm holding out for a severe case of neglect though, we shall see.

I'm watching this thread with great interest !!!

[snowtigger]

£602 a box of hobnobs and a pack of stooper waffles the chocolate ones?

[cdwood2010]

£603

1 box of hobnobs
1 pack of chocolate stooper waffles
1 reach around

[Goldy]

£604 and a blowjob from Phil MRV6 (he volunteered)

[Paul Woods]

That doesn't surprise me, he supports Newcastle so i already know he loves cocks.

[Goldy]

That doesn't surprise me, he supports Newcastle so i already know he loves cocks.

So it's a deal then.... Phil is on his way over now to make payment ;-)

[Paul Woods]

He's already here, in my loft, with a rubber mask on and a snooker ball taped in his mouth.

[Spook]

RE No love for a 3s-gte anyone?

was looking for other stuff, firstly found this
https://sites.google.com/site/primeperformancenj/

aha & then found this
http://www.mr2.com/forums/mk-3-mr2-spyder/Toyota-MR2-88483-prime-gen4-3sgte-spyder-build-thread.html

Draw your attention to estimated power to weight ratio and the claim to having a kit in 2 months

[Phaeton]

How clean is that car underneath in the 3rd picture down, 12 years old & still look likes when it came out of the factory, pah 12 mile trip in the UK would change that.

Alan...

[loadswine]

Nice build thread. Not really sure why they didn't take the rear bumper support bar off, it makes access so much easier. Hope they have plans for an LSD in that one, the Roadster does really benefit from it. It is super clean underneath though, probably slightly better climate than here! :)

[Infamous]

3sgte would be awesome but aren't they supposed to be a lot of work to install in a mk3?
Have you ever put a 3sgte in a mk3 before Paul?

[snowtigger]

It's been done on here once a long time ago but we never heard if he finished it.

It was hard work and he was having trouble with the ecus and signals.

[Paul Woods]

3sgte would be awesome but aren't they supposed to be a lot of work to install in a mk3?
Have you ever put a 3sgte in a mk3 before Paul?

One of the very few swaps i actually haven't done, although well within capabilities.

[Paff]

hey tiggger 3sgte powered mk3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1VGp5c59Pg

[Infamous]

We don't believe you can do it Paul... you'll have to prove us wrong :e045: lol

[knightrous]

EJ25 in a MK3 damn it :P
3SGTE's are boring :D

[Infamous]

^ I have literally never heard anyone say that before.
No love for scoob engines here :moon: lol

[mrT]

hey tiggger 3sgte powered mk3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1VGp5c59Pg
that is squeezed in there freeeeking tight... you aint ever gettingthat chargecooler off to change the plugs, looks like you would have to drop the engine to do the plugs...

[Gouky]

subi engines will only fit longitudinally in the MR2, too much work for so little power.

I'd sooner suggest a wankel, you'd only need to clock it to avoid axle to exhaust interference and fix the oil sump so it isn't sucking air at the new angle.

[snowtigger]

I wonder if the Nissan gtr v6 would work?

[Gouky]

again, only longitudinally, but as an added bonus it already has the facility to run the axle right through the oil pan. if you were to run the stock transmission with the center diff welded and capped off the rear output you'd probably be great!

[Gouky]

I'm not convinced if the front axle alone in the GTR would put up to all of it's power though

[knightrous]

I suggest the boxer motor because it's never been done before and it has a pretty low centre of gravity, which would be interesting to see how it works with a lightweight car like the MR-S. Longitude mounting is fine, Paul just needs to get the grinder out!

[Telecaster]

Gas turbine is the way to go. Rover did it once ............. ;)

[Phaeton]

Rover did it once ............. ;)

Is that meant as a recommendation :biggrin:

Alan...

[OlberJ]

I suggest the boxer motor because it's never been done before and it has a pretty low centre of gravity, which would be interesting to see how it works with a lightweight car like the MR-S. Longitude mounting is fine, Paul just needs to get the grinder out!

That's my thinking, if it handles better it doesn't need that much power.

[Telecaster]

Is that meant as a recommendation :biggrin:

Alan...

No ... just an observation :)

I think it was one of those things that just "had to be tried" and they tried it .......... silly buggers !!! ;)

I think one of the more sensible things they did was getting that (little) 3.5 V8 from Buick. They seemed to make very good use of it. Wonder if Paul could shoehorn that into a Mk3????

[snowtigger]

The rover v8 which I have an sd1 version with the all alloy construction was the first v8 to be built like this by Buick in the 50s , rover bought the plans because Buick could never fix the head warping which rover did.
The lowest bhp is about 138/168 going to 200bhp in the vittesse and 300 in the twin turbo it's a lovely motor but the more bhp and displacement you get out of it the more fragile it is.
It is a push rod v8 after all the racing 5.0 got over 500bhp but never lasted very long.

[Telecaster]

The rover v8 which I have an sd1 version with the all alloy construction was the first v8 to be built like this by Buick in the 50s , rover bought the plans because Buick could never fix the head warping which rover did.
The lowest bhp is about 138/168 going to 200bhp in the vittesse and 300 in the twin turbo it's a lovely motor but the more bhp and displacement you get out of it the more fragile it is.
It is a push rod v8 after all the racing 5.0 got over 500bhp but never lasted very long.

I just remember it from when my then boss bought a brand new Rover 3500 which had the same body shape as the 2000. This was in 1970 something, and it was his pride & joy. We had a labourer whose job it was to wash & polish the damned thing every day, and make sure it always had a full tank of petrol.

One day, he drove it to the filling station to get the petrol and got his eye on the car wash that had recently opened there and decided to save himself a bit of elbow grease by running the car through it. Problem was, he forgot to switch the radio off and so the electric aerial ended-up getting torn out by its roots and wrapped around the car wash brushes. All Hell broke loose when the boss found out.

[snowtigger]

The family goes p5b the b being Buick which are uber rare but gorgeous old cars then the p6 3.500 then sd1 styled on the Ferrari Daytona .

[snowtigger]

It would be to big to fit the mr2 and there's much newer v8 that have more power and reliability if it was me Audi v8 would be the way to go, twin turbos lol

[Telecaster]

It would be to big to fit the mr2 and there's much newer v8 that have more power and reliability if it was me Audi v8 would be the way to go, twin turbos lol

Aye ...... somebody's trying to shoehorn one of those into a MK 1 I believe. :icon_wink:

[Goldy]

Aye ...... somebody's trying to shoehorn one of those into a MK 1 I believe. :icon_wink:

It will never be done, it's impossible ;-)

[loadswine]

There is a Roadster with an Audi v8 in it somewhere about, but not sure who has it now.

[donnac]

What a bargain and great news with the engine!

Has it got the side strikers for the hard top? If so I would be interested in buying them?

Cheers:icon_mrgreen:

[Paul Woods]

Hi Donna, yes i do have the hardtop fitting kit for sale, whatever the going rate for them is i'll beat it :)

[donnac]

Hi Paul,

Will send a pm,

Cheers

[Paul Woods]

Been using this Mk3 as a daily driver now for a week while the 944 insurance nonsense sorts itself out, i'm pretty taken on this little car, a bit underpowered but drives so sweetly with no issues at all. I did an oil check after 200 miles and it hasn't used a single drop so far, so i think i've had a result!

[loadswine]

A great result indeed, well done Paul. Keep on enjoying it, they are addictive fun. Probably why I'm on my 5th Roadster! ;)

[Paul Woods]

I think she's a keeper Nige, so much so that i just bought a set of Rimini wheels for it....

2393

Now looking at subtle bodykits, nothing too lairy, got any good links for front lips/sideskirts?

[vinp182]

2394

TRD lip kit logs great :)

Mine is genuine rear and sides but the front is an eBay replacement which wasn't a great fit but would be no problem for you

[Paul Woods]

Cheers mate i'll have a look at those

[snowtigger]

I like the subtle look on a mk3 but knowing Paul it will end up with a v6 and wide arches.

[Telecaster]

While we're on the subject of a MK3, does anyone know any way(s) of waterproofing the hood? Mine is very porous and now the seats etc. are mildewed.

[knightrous]

Throwing another idea out there for this car....
Supercharge it :)
Don't believe I have seen a supercharged 1ZZFE in a spider yet. A cheap M45 or M60 supercharger should be easy enough to fit into the engine bay and give it a little more power.

[snowtigger]

Isn't there a product that reseals convertible hoods bit like nik wax for jackets ?

[loadswine]

Those wheels look good Paul, do they come in staggered sizes or are you going for just the stagger on the tyres?
These guys are an affiliate over on ROC and do a copy of the TRD lip kit http://www.hzaltezza.com/body-kits-1/04-05-toyota-mr2-td-lip-kit.html
The MS design kit is pretty good too, if you can find one around. Pop a half decent exhaust on and the sound improves too.

Like the idea of a supercharged 1zz, now if someone can do a reasonable kit for those, folks will be interested.

As for the roof, it shouldn't go porous, as the outer layer is vinyl, but to get the roof looking top notch, I use Renovo, not found anything better yet ( and I have tried a few things. ) Its a 2 part thing, first is a cleaner, second is a kind of proofer/ waxy layer that makes water bead nicely.
Sometimes, in Winter, condensation can cause a bit of mildew on the underside of the roof, but hoover it off and job's a good'un!
Other times water is found in the rear bins or carpets and it is the drains for the hood that need a clean out.

[Goldy]

Lets be fair here Paul, it's about bloody time you were driving an MR2 again! So nice one! Did you sell the celica in the end? I quite liked the rims on that.

[Paul Woods]

Nige i'm going to go for 215 tyres on the rear and 205 on the front, the rims are all the same.

I have plans for the engine department later this year, but not saying much just yet, but it will be a quick swap and special.

Goldy it feels good being in an Mr2 again, ironically my Mk1 V6 isn't far off completion either so it's a toss up which one to drive, still got the St183, i have no idea what to do with it, i spent a fortune on its running gear and it's just sat at the garage not being used, i really do need to sell it i think.

[cabbydave]

TTE rear spoiler required on it and lower it I need to do mine when I get the time
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/02/103.jpg (http://s66.beta.photobucket.com/user/thunderdave/media/20130113_121720.jpg.html)

[Paul Woods]

Nice Dave, similar wheels to the ones i just ordered.

[cabbydave]

Just need to find a 190 celica.now at handy money

[Paul Woods]

Be aware the Celica gearbox has the linkages on the wrong side for Mk3 use, so you'd need to use your Mk3 5 speed, if you get a Corolla T sport engine/box you will be able to use the whole lot.

[loadswine]

A fairly low cost rear lip spoiler here http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=34825&hilit=engine+lid+spoiler&start=60#p418603
Colour match is superb and pretty subtle too.

[snowtigger]

That's not a spoiler that's an excuse for a bit of plastic, this is tb not tart your car.

[nik]

it think its nice and subtle..

[Paul Woods]

I agree, looks like an Audi TT one, just nice and subtle, i like.

[loadswine]

Just chucking ideas around. I have one, but my car isn't very brutal I'm afraid. Plenty of bigger ones about, all the way up top barn door size.

[Paul Woods]

You know i saw one as part of a Japanese kit in Banzai one day, on a very widebody Mk3, the kit was awful but the rear spoiler was the titties.... it overhung the lights and wrapped around them at the corners, really looked good.... can anyone remember that?

[Paul Woods]

Found it! I think this looks awesome.... where can i get that?

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/download?mid=893e2e0206432b4b71278fe42e305bd2&rtyp=lt&ctyp=other&ts=1285372403000

[Paul Woods]

Ah Veilside kit, not keen on the rest of it, but i want that spoiler.

http://img193.exs.cx/img193/5921/exhaust25qo.jpg (http://img193.exs.cx/img193/5921/exhaust25qo.jpg)

[cabbydave]

Simular one here http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MR2-ROADSTER-MK3-2000-2005-REAR-BOOT-SPOILER-DIFFUSER-JDL-Style-/150991297096?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2327c85a48h

[Paul Woods]

Dave, no offence mate, but that's fkin horrible lol

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/02/108.jpg

[cabbydave]

I know you could buy it and burn it when your heater breaks at work

[cabbydave]

If you decide to go silly with the rear arches i've got a pair of silver 1/4 panels and some mad wide hubcentric wheel spacers that dont stand me at loads of money

[snowtigger]

That spoiler looks the dogs bollocks Paul mate the rest of the kit is shite but love how it wraps round , I wonder if I could make it fit a mk1 ha ha.

[racerADS]

Ah Veilside kit, not keen on the rest of it, but i want that spoiler.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/02/108.jpg (http://img193.exs.cx/img193/5921/exhaust25qo.jpg)

And all this time I have been using axel stands under the sills to support the car when all I needed were some bricks under the exhaust... :(:banghead:

[OlberJ]

I think you'll find that's a Carrera GT you've linked to and not a daft Mr2 with a bodykit. Honestly Paul, come on.

[Telecaster]

I think this looks nice

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321070877121&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123

[cabbydave]

Theres a guy called life of bryan on the mr2roc selling a tte front bumper that looks fairly good and it fits.

[loadswine]

I think that one is a TRD item and not the best I've seen. These things are so subjective, I spent a lot of time looking for bits that would go together on my old red one, before deciding. I like being stealth for now, with this one, its all part of the fun, doing different things with different cars.

[snowtigger]

If I had a 2gr mk3 I think I would go stealth option as well just to upset all the posers, your red one was stunning a very taste full bodykit I liked that mk3 a lot, but my fav colour is that dark gunmetal grey bronze with red leather seats there's one round ours that looks just right.

[loadswine]

I'm with you on upsetting the posers Tiggs. Even with just the turbo, its fun doing that, with a 2 GR, it would just slay them. One day......... :icon_smile:
I like the sable as well and the red leather is pretty nice with it. Got that with my current silver one. Thanks for the comment on the red one, still my fave Roadster.

[Infamous]

So has this been turbo'd yet? :eusa_whistle: lol

[sinjen]

I was screaming "put a Gen 4 3sgte in it" while reading this thread, then I saw that you'd sorted it lol...

[Paul Woods]

Time for an update, i drove this Mk3 around on its new bottom end for a few months and noticed it was using some oil as suspected, it only became apparent after a lot of miles, anyhoo, the car itself is a little beauty and i did have a hankering to do something different with it, so last week we pulled the 1zz out of it.

I picked up a special little engine recently, a non runner and did require a lot of work to get it back up to scratch, but now overhauled and ready for fitting into the little Mk3....

Say hello to a Lotus Exige 2zz-ge supercharger engine, one of only 50 made or 250 made if we're talking Corolla compressor. I've had to source lots of missing parts to get this off the ground, ECU with immobiliser and key from one of only 250 cars ever built was not an easy thing to track down!

However it is now rebuilt and detailed ready for fitting.....

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/05/465.jpg

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/05/466.jpg

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/05/467.jpg

Taken from Wiki....

"In February 2005, Lotus announced a limited production run of 50 Exiges, using the Toyota engine with a supercharger (http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/wiki/Supercharger), that increases the power output to 243 bhp (181 kW; 246 PS). These vehicles were only available in yellow or black, representing the colours of Lotus Sport, and are badged 240R. They have a projected 0-60 mph (0–100 km/h) time of 3.9 seconds and 0-100 mph (0–160 km/h) of 9.9 seconds, with a top speed of 155 mph (249 km/h) at a cost of £44,000."

Should go pretty well then!

[Gouky]

damn, that's a hell of a find!

[loadswine]

Oh boy! That is going to be a weapon! WS is the factory of delights! :D

[Paul Woods]

Like Willy Wonka! At least I think that's what Phil called me....

[adamh]

you get hold of some good bits...

[Goldy]

blooming awesome swap.... glad to see you doing something different (again) take it you won't be offering these out to everyone ;-)

[racerADS]

That little four pot has come up trumps Paul. How you find these things defies belief. You going to make a special red mk2 to go with your special red mk1 and special red mk3?

[snowtigger]

That should be a stonking swop carry on that man it's the kind of swop I like, it should go like stink.

[OlberJ]

Nice find. What did the engine need for rebuilding?

[Telecaster]

That little four pot has come up trumps Paul. How you find these things defies belief. You going to make a special red mk2 to go with your special red mk1 and special red mk3?

Well he has my (faded) red MK2 sitting there ...............

[Paul Woods]

The engine was previously fitted to a customers Mk3, so i agreed to take it in part ex, it was a total non runner with several issues both plumbing wise and electrically. I don't really want to get into what was wrong because another Mr2 garage did the conversion and it will look bad if i list the problems which were all conversion related.

I've spent a fair amount getting it to this stage, i still haven't heard it run but fairly confident with the work i have done that it will be ok.

I am on the hunt for the 2zz-ge compressor ECU pinout diagrams, that is the last piece of the jigsaw, my local Toyota dealer is trying to get me the diagrams but even they said it will be a big ask, i can only find the NA 2zz stuff online, so if anyone can help that would be great.

Racerads i had the same thought myself, a special red Mk2 might well be in order to complete the set :)

[racerADS]

The mk2 would have to have a rare engine in it, maybe something that hasn't been done before and obviously forced induction but not a turbo...

[Kev]

Paul, I haven't checked myself, but there's a few lotus manuals here, http://www.beddysblog.com/lotusmanuals/
Not sure if there is anything on the exige 240R

Also you could try posting on scottishelises and see if any one has any info on the ECU pinouts. They're a helpful bunch!!

[dgh938peg]

The mk2 would have to have a rare engine in it, maybe something that hasn't been done before and obviously forced induction but not a turbo...

Olly.dent on MR2OC is currently working the glitches out of his TC/SC 3sgte - making insane power but destroying magnetic clutches - believe he's now on a snow-plough mag-clutch!!!

That is a lush little gem there Paul, nicely done indeed! beggars the question; who's driving this one to JAE?? :D

[boondougal]

Paul, once again an inspired project, and seems very timely given our PM's. please please please think of me if you want to move this on in the future.

[loadswine]

Funny, I had exactly the same thought! I rather fancy owning this if it ever becomes available as well. Wonder if the attached kit could be cloned before installation ;)

[Paul Woods]

Well we finally got around to fitting this engine into my little Mk3, the previous effort was a bashed to hell firewall that really looked awful, so i wanted this to look like a factory install, so we took the decision to cut out the area of bulkhead that fouls the supercharger etc....

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/121.jpg

This area is going to be nicely boxed in, sealed, painted and soundproofed and also an aluminium glassmat applied so that it looks like it has always been that way, here you can see the intrusion into the cubby area by the SC and pipework, it's not much but i just didn't want to bash this area in with a hammer, i can make a much nicer job of it rebuilding this area.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/122.jpg

So after one day the engine is in, almost everything hooked up and just exhaust and wiring to do....

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/123.jpg

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/124.jpg

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/125.jpg

I has taken a lot to get this far with this, and a lot of investment in parts etc, but i'm hoping it will be a very OEM experience but very fast.

[loadswine]

Liking that a lot, nice job Paul!

[bobby5930]

Hi Paul,
I've always fancied building a "LoCost" kit car with a Scooby engine and running gear (4x4 system). It would be interesting to see if it could be done with an MR2 Mk1? Plenty welding required and swapping around of diffs etc but could it be done?

[Paul Woods]

Hi Bobby, anything is possible with enough time and money, however the amount of modification needed to create a 4WD Mk1 would pretty much mean it would look like a Mk1 but not a single bit of it would be like one, i think it would have to be front engined, probably using something like a Scooby as a base, with the donor car shortened to match a Mk1 wheelbase, then a Mk1 shell unpicked and welded to the Scooby, now that sounds simple, but there are a million problems to overcome.

It would no longer actually be an Mr2, just look like one.

This for me would be the most feasible way to do this, or put another 4a-ge up front to make a twin engined 4WD, but i think that's illegal in the UK.

In short, anything is possible, but it would be a very deep wallet excercise.

[Phaeton]

Bit like this Escort http://www.16vminiclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31809

Alan...

[Paul Woods]

If i may wander briefly back on topic lol

Today the firewall got rebuilt back around the new engine, we paid special attention to strength by including a tubular section, cut out all of the sections and welded them in, followed by seam sealing and painting.

Ok it doesn't look quite OEM but it's structurally sound, airtight and the engine has all the room it needs now. I will need to modify one of my rear storage bins slightly but everything else should fit back in.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/134.jpg

[Star_69]

That looks brilliant. Really tidy job! Don't put too much soundproofing on... the whine is a feature!

[snowtigger]

The whine will be the wife saying how much has he spent on a that car ?

[Paul Woods]

It's ok, Becky understands my affliction, she knows it is who i am and there is no cure.

[loadswine]

And this place isn't exactly a self help group for that!! :icon_wink:

[Paul Woods]

As of today this now runs, it took a fair bit of wiring up and i suspect i have some more to do, but it does run.... however....

It runs like crap, or rather idles very poorly.

It fires first turn of the key and idles well for 5 seconds, then starts hunting all over the place, it does pick up and rev fairly cleanly and i have no error codes showing from the ECU which is good (i'm expecting some pending ones later on, the 2zz is a bitch for throwing toys out at a later date) but nothing i can't handle.

For now i have to get to the bottom of the shit idle, next job will be cleaning the ISCV out and checking for any air leaks on the intake/plenum/SC.

It also appears to be in open loop too, but i do know these 2zz's have an initial learning phase to get through.

Happy for now that it runs though, it means my wiring isn't too far away.

[loadswine]

The 1zzs do the learning thing too, when you swap them out. They tend to run at around 1500 rpm to start with, then settle down a bit. After a couple of start ups, they seem to be okay and run normally. I suppose the maf is okay on this? Air leakage does sound plausible. Hope you nail it down without too much bother.

[cdwood2010]

Get that video up!

:)

[Paul Woods]

I hear you Nige, it's struggling to maintain 600rpm at idle when cold, so i really think it's got a stuck ISCV, or a really bad air leak somewhere, but that usually results in a high idle.

We will see what happens after an ISCV clean and a settling down period, i can't think there is much else wrong really.

I've also isolated which pin controls the supercharger clutch relay, previously unknown, those clever Toyota people used an existing VSV output from the NA 2zz and just branched into that, so i will be able to have it working as the factory intended, although it does seem to be a bit pointless as it engages almost straight away at 6mph.

I do have a trick shift light with programmable outputs on it, which i fancied triggering the SC clutch at whatever RPM/Speed i like..... i think it would be much better to have it as a NA at every condition until WOT, like the TRD units do, it seems pointless having it engage during normal driving, i think i'll bring it in around 3000rpm and or above 30mph.

I'll grab a video tomorrow for Christina.

[cdwood2010]

I'll grab a video tomorrow for Christina.

You better have pants on this time....

[loadswine]

Re engage point for the SC, I think the original intention was to provide some low range grunt for the 2zz, where it lacked it , ie anywhere before lift. I've driven a Corolla Compressor with one of these and it seemed to come in at fairly light throttle openings even at low revs, which made it feel nice and flexible. Still, I guess you can have a play around with it Paul and see how it feels to you.
Hope you got the running sorted.

[Paul Woods]

Yes that makes sense Nige, i'll have a play with the boost point and see how it goes. Today as guessed the ECU went from running like a dog at idle in open loop and then switched to closed loop and purred like a kitten, so i have to put that one down to the learning period. I am seeing very lean running though in closed loop, the fuel trims are maxed out, so i think my O2 sensor is bad ie not reporting the truth, or there is still a bad air leak somewhere.... i can work on that one now i know it runs properly.

I am having to run the old 1zz ECU in parallel to the new ECU for Canbus dash functions, i couldn't get the Compressor ECU to control the temp gauge or battery light, so running the old ECU just for these will sort that.

It also appears the stock 1zz rad is a piece of shit even on a 2zz, it's heatsoaking at idle up to 110* even with the fans on full chat. Now i am aware of a water pump issue on Corolla T sport 2zz engines, they only have 6 blades on the pump, which works fine at higher revs, but heatsoaks at idle.... i came across this issue on my Mk1 2zz swaps, the solution was to fit the Exige 9 blade water pump as an upgrade, but this engine is from the Exige so i know it already has the correct 9 blade pump, plus even when i hold revs at 3000rpm the temp still climbs..... so yep, stock 1zz rads suck donkey balls, i'll be going for an upgrade straight away.

All good fun and par for the course with any new swap i've tried.

Today i did a swap around with wheels, fitted some staggered deep dish 16" borbet T i think they are...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/223.jpg

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/224.jpg

Two problems, the car sits way too high on these, but i have some 30mm drop TTE springs to go on which will sort that.

Second problem is a little bit more involved, the wheels are too wide for the car, they stick out by 1" at the front and rear.... but i am determined to use these wheels as i really think they suit it, so the plan will be some sort of widebody kit or perhaps a one off Woodsport special with flared arches.... i haven't decided yet.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/225.jpg

[loadswine]

Flared arches will look ace! As for the rad on the Mk3, its not often a problem , other than the ones that disintegrate with age. My coolant temps with the stock rad on Saturday, got no higher than 91, according to the PFC and that's with a turbo as well. Some of the older ones may well be past their best though and be in need of replacement. Bleeding the system can be a right pig with the 1zz, so I'm guessing it would be similar with the 2zz.
As an aside, the intake temps can go up a bit in this weather, I've noticed.

[OlberJ]

Not a fan of those wheels at all. Look a bit too scenester for me.

/tuppence

[Paul Woods]

Yep wheels seem to be personal taste, i'm a sucker for a deep dish though. I'm going to play with a few ideas on the body, i might do a wide Mk3 OEM look like the Mk1, but i won't use my wheel arches, i think they would look wrong on a Mk3, so i'll probably buy stock wings/quarters and chop them around to make a widebody version.

I'll have another crack with bleeding today Nige but i don't think the rad on this car is coping with the 2zz at all, mind you it was boiling hot yesterday but the fans were on full chat so it should have controlled it.

[loadswine]

It could well be that the rad is goosed, especially if it looks as if its been in there for a while. I guess if you have to replace it anyway, one of your excellent alloy rads will be a good move.

[Paul Woods]

Yeah it gives me an excuse to rip the AC crap out too.

[loadswine]

Lol! I like my aircon. I guess you'll keep the second fan and wire them up to come on together.

[Paul Woods]

Yep already got both relay 2 and 3 wired to the 2zz fan control ground, so both fans come on together, but still temp rises.... i'll have another crack today and see what happens, i presume others have run 2zz's in roadsters with stock rads Nige?

[dgh938peg]

If you're not wanting to get too involved in wide arch stuff and alike - there is an ab flug style kit for the mk3..

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/236.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/237.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2013/07/238.jpg

[loadswine]

Looks very similar to the Postert RS200 kit.
Back to the cooling issue, a few people have reported issues with having to bleed the system frequently and higher temps due to airlocks, and they seem to point the finger at the header tank providing a problem in this regard.
http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9211&p=510396&hilit=radiator+2zz#p510396
One recent conversion didn't report any problems though http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38503&p=462689&hilit=radiator+2zz#p462689
Hopefully that may be of some use.

[Paul Woods]

Cheers for that Danski, a bit bubbly for my taste though, kind of looks like someone has inflated the car!

Nige i've nailed the problem down to a stuck shut thermostat, just not circulating at all. I've got all systems working now including the dash by running both 1zz and 2zz ECUs.... still running very lean and maxed out fuel trims at idle, so it looks like i've fitted the wrong type of lambda sensor, new one on its way.

[loadswine]

Cool, good progress mate. :thumbsup:

[OlberJ]

Standard 1zz rad on my 1MZ conversion and that got used. It did look fairly new mind you.

Be interesting to see how this compares to a V6.

[Paul Woods]

Some strange old shit happening with this, i got on top of the cooling issue, simple thermostat problem, but i still have the lean running issue, ECU maxing out the short and long term fuel trims in closed loop to either compensate for a bad lambda sensor or an air leak on the plenum.... well i was just shooting a video of it idling when i panned the camera onto the scanner just to show the parameters and would you believe at that EXACT moment the lambda started switching within the proper voltage range (0-1v) when for the last 2 days it was switching from 0.01v to 0.1v which is a very lean running condition, so much so that it has thrown a "bank 1 too lean" fault code.

You can see from this video the short term fuel trim is 19.5% and the long term is 30%, way too high.... but just as i shot the video the trims have just started to come down.

What in the name of Satans portion is going on?

I presumed the learning period was restricted to the initial open loop running period only, but i have been in closed loop for over a day now, but with a really poor lambda reading.... it's so odd it chose to start switching 0-1v right when i took the video.

I'm not complaining, it rules out an air leak on the plenum, maybe i have the laziest lambda sensor in history!

Check the video out, i assure you it does not sound like a tractor engine, that is the usual iphone crapomatic surround-o-shite full dolby wankeffect as per all my engine running videos, it's actually pretty sweet.

Anyway here it is, everything's a bit dusty...


http://youtu.be/rCM3oAzJvvA

[Paul Woods]

Standard 1zz rad on my 1MZ conversion and that got used. It did look fairly new mind you.

Be interesting to see how this compares to a V6.

Olie every V6 Mk3 i've ever built has heatsoaked the stock rad at idle, not a single one would maintain temp over long term running, they all need a rad upgrade, you must have not let yours run for long enough at idle mate, the stock Mk3 rad just cannot handle the heat produced by a V6.

[OlberJ]

I know, it seems strange but it sat running there for ages when i first built it. It wasn't on the road for a good few months. Also took some hard running use out and about, all sorts of weather and never got too hot.

I ran over the dukes pass, parked up and left it running by mistake when i moved it in the car park and it still didn't overheat.

Track work might have been it's undoing but it just seemed fine as it was. El strangeo. Would agree they are stupidly thin rads though.

I'm thinking more of this swap though, you might be alright with the standard rad. Same amount of coolant being shifted around, just a bit of extra heat in the heid from the charger temps.

[Paul Woods]

Very odd....I can't explain why yours was ok mate, i've built a few dozen of them now and not a single one would make it past the hour mark without heatsoaking, that's a mystery!

The stock rad on this 2zz SC conversion seems to be fine, i'm now seeing a max of 98*, fans come on at 97* and come down to 91*.... it never goes above 98* now no matter how long i leave it idling, and that is in 30* summer heat.

[Paul Woods]

More debugging of this mystery lean running, today saw the P0171 system too lean bank 1 code return, the O2 is sometimes switching properly, but mostly hovvers around the 0.02v region, short term fuel trim is 19.5% and long term is 30.5% , they are triggering the fault code.

So i have a shortlist of possible causes to work through...

Bad O2 sensor (tempermental) , i have a new one on the way.
Bad or dirty Maf, it's returning roughly 2 g/s which seems about right, but i'll clean it anyway if the new O2 doesn't work.
PCV hose split, i've looked at it and it seems ok.
Intake leak between Maf and engine..... still a question mark over that, i can't find any leaks but it could be.
Exhaust leak, can't hear or see one.
Poor fuel pressure, everyone seems to use the 1zz fuel pump without issue on 2zz swaps.
Blocked injectors.... can't see it being this, a last resort.

I drove the car under load and it definitely has a lot more to give, there are huge flat spots, something is stopping it fuelling properly, just got to find it.

[headcase]

I would probably say maf
Paul

[loadswine]

MAF could be the culprit. See if it runs any different on tickover with it unplugged. It will throw a code, but if it runs better, then the maf could be at the seat of the problem.

[Paul Woods]

Yep i'll give that a try chaps, i've noticed when the lambda switches properly from 0-1v it will slowly revert back to lean running and 0.01v-0.03v and max out the fuel trims, it's very odd, almost like a temporary air leak somewhere.

[Paul Woods]

Update, fitted a new lambda and it is reporting the same as the old one, periods of lean running followed by normal switching 0-1v then back to lean again, so at least i know the lambda is actually reporting the fuel mixture and not faulty.

Also replaced the Maf with a known good one (all 1zz and 2zz Mafs are the same), on doing that i found the previous garage had fitted the Maf without a sealing O ring.... i thought i had found the problem, but after fitting an O ring it was still the same.

So it isn't Lambda or Maf related... next thing is fuel pressure check, hard to do on a Roadster but i need to confirm it.

After that it can only be an air leak on the plenum/supercharger assembly, i am going to do a smoke test for that.

Under load the car is gutless, holds back, and just doesn't want to go, off load it drives fine and idles fine.

The saga continues.....

[Jiff Lemon]

Random question - How much boost is it throwing in? Can you measure it?

[Paul Woods]

Good point, i would have to tap into the plenum but it would be worth doing.... problem is even when i disconnect the SC (unplug the clutch relay) the problem is exactly the same, these 2zz SC engines are just a normal NA 2zz with a low blow SC on them, effectively the SC is just an add on.

[headcase]

What Ecu you running Paul it's not down to Ecu not riching up once she starts to boost , just thinking out loud .

[headcase]

Forget hat posted same time lol

[Paul Woods]

I am running the Corolla compressor ECU, the exact one meant for this engine, however it really is no different to running a 2zz NA ECU, the SC is just drawing more air past the Maf, and the ECU on the NA 2zz allows more fuel for it..... so there was no need for me to hunt down a Compressor ECU.

[headcase]

In that case I would do smoke test under pressure.

[Jiff Lemon]

or just throwing out there...... double check everything for the blindingly obvious.

You know - the pipe you rerouted in a rush, the earth lead flapping in the wind..

We've all done it! :icon_redface:

[Paul Woods]

Ok wiring and plumbing wise it is perfect, no problems there at all. Today i investigated the entire intake system from Maf to head with a full can of carb cleaner, i sprayed it around every joint, flange and gasket, and there are zero air leaks. I confirmed this with a fine mist sprayed near the air filter and immediately my O2 reading shot up into the rich zone (0.9v) and if i continued to spray the fuel trims would come down to normal and then into a negative value (normal for rich running).

So i have confirmed the Maf is doing its job, the Lambda is working perfectly and reporting the exact fuel mixture, there are no air leaks anywhere.... which narrows my problem down to fuelling, there is now nothing else it can be.

Within fuelling there are just two elements, fuel pressure and injector delivery, so tomorrow i will be testing the fuel pressure, if that checks out then the ONLY thing left is injector blockage of some sort, simply put the engine is just not getting the fuel it needs despite all of the sensors doing their job and the ECU is struggling to maintain Stoich (lambda 1) even on maximum fuel trims.

I think i am close now though, i wouldn't normally share my daily diagnostic proceedures (normally i can rectify a problem very quickly) but i find this one a particular bitch to diagnose.

[knightrous]

Since this is a second hand motor, has someone pulled the injectors out at some stage? Maybe the incorrect injectors were reinstalled (set of NA injectors instead of SC).

[loadswine]

Just a thought, if it were injector blockage, wouldn't this give some sort of misfire? Some 1zz engines with a duff injector have had misfire and rough running symptoms, as well as throwing a cel code.
Doesn't sound like you are too far off nailing this now Paul.

[Paul Woods]

Good thinking, and if the problem existed purely under load i would totally agree, however i can see the issue at idle with no load on the motor, and the injectors should be able to deliver enough fuel to maintain lambda 1 even if they were the wrong ones.

The 2zz NA and 2zz SC appear to have different injectors, the TTE kit lists injectors as part of the upgrade package, thing is exact information on this is sketchy at best on the internet, it appears a stock 2zz NA has 330cc injectors, and the 2zz SC has 440cc..... but then this engine is supposed to have come from a Lotus Exige, so i would expect it to have the correct injectors fitted....

That definitely needs looking at though.

[Paul Woods]

Nige i do have a big misfire/flatspot under load, so i can't rule out a partial blockage mate, now that i've narrowed it down to the fuel system i will know more soon.

[Paul Woods]

Knightrous, have 1,000,000 keyboard mechanic points! :thumbsup:

The issue is now resolved, not fixed but thanks to Knightrous's suggestion we know what the problem is, i presumed that a complete Lotus Exige engine would come with the injectors as part of the engine, well maybe it did, i'll never know, but what i do now know is this 2zz SC is running with stock 1zz green injectors!!!

Stock greens are 250cc, the 2zz NA runs 310cc or 330cc ones, the Supercharged 2zz has replacement injectors with the TTE kit that are 440cc..... so there you go, i am missing 190cc per injector, fuck me..... no wonder my ECU was maxing the trims out!

That means the previous garage ran these injectors and maxed the standalone out to compensate or simply didn't know.... that's frigging shite.

Anyway i am now on the hunt for a set of Corolla compressor or Lotus Exige SC injectors.... Ebay ferret go fetch!

[Phaeton]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.Xexige+in jectors&_nkw=exige+injectors&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Alan...

[Star_69]

Hi Paul. The injectors should be 12 hole green denso 440cc injectors. Part number 23250-YW201, which are standard on the Exige S and TTE Compressor. Silly question, but what diameter is the induction pipe? The stock ECU cannot take any greater than 2.75", otherwise it'll run lean.

Also you mentioned above the Compressor ECU is the same as a standard ECU. Apparently the compressor ECU has two maps. Due to the high comp, it requires super unleaded and when it detects too much knock it switches to a 'safe' lower power map and requires an ECU reset to put it back. Also lift is lowered to smooth delivery with boost. Not that this is related, just an FYI

EDIt: sorry, i've just seen another page and noticed you've checked the injectors. The Exige S ones are greens too. Defo not the same?

[Paul Woods]

Cheers Brad, i've had another look and initially we thought it had wrong injectors, they are in fact the correct 23250-YW201 items, sorry Knightrous i have to take your points back! :) We got confused with both injectors being green.... i've never known Toyota make them the same colour and different sizes.

So, just tested fuel pressure whch is 48psi, normal, all plugs are lean, so it does look like a universal air leak or a problem with the intake.

I'll revamp the intake and see what happens, thanks for all your help chaps.

[Paul Woods]

Job sorted! Thanks Brad, that little gem of info saved the day, no bigger than a 2.75mm intake on a stock ECU!

I've retrofitted a 1zz airbox and intake pipe, fuel trims are what they should be and the car pulls like a one armed wanker.

Thankyou to everyone that helped, it had me stumped.

[Jiff Lemon]

Who'd have thought it.... Absolute gem of info there!