View Full Version : Steve's Audi AHC V8, 4WD, Celica project.
stevehall
10-03-2011, 11:02
I'm starting to make the first steps with this project, the donee isn't an MR2, but my 6th generation Celica:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/32.jpg
You may notice a 3VZ-FE sitting in there. This is something I started and finished a couple years back now, it's been perfect and runs nicely. No real reason to get rid of it, but I'm getting restless without a project, so it'll have to make way for progress. :eusa_boohoo:
Incidentally, if you want to buy a full Celica V6 swap package, let me know.
Onto the Audi,
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/73.jpg
There's a bit of a story about getting this home. I bought it on eBay in with a broken gearbox, no tax and 'locked out' but with key. £895 + £270 for a 400 mile round trip recovery. It turned up at about 11pm and dumped in the road. After trying various 'safe' methods of gaining access it appeared a window will have to be smashed. Half brick and feet just bounched straight off, the side windows are all laminated glass, like the front screen. In the end I got my 2m steel engine support bar and battered through the glass. Door open, key in ignition, doesn't turn, looks like this key only opens the boot (didn't unlock to door either). So the wheels are locked, and I need to move this thing onto the drive, more faffing, getting late, already dark. I grab the trusty angle grinder and chop through the steering shaft. Thankfully I had a bunch of friends rallied for the occassion, and used the procedue, 1) Jack up the car, 2) Steer the wheels, 3) drop the car, 4) push the car, 5) Repeat, we eventually got it onto the drive.
I've since started pulling bits off that are not needed. I want to hear the engine running and try and simplify the wiring while in the Audi as I'm currently (and perhaps naively) hoping to keep the Audi ECU. While pulling everything around the ignition barrel apart I got to this:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/74.jpg
The fat white cable leaving to the right had be wondering, but now I'm sure it's one of those 'make sure you start the engine while in park' jobbies, and maybe I could have unlocked the steering lock with the key anyway, but as you may remember, this car was bought with a broken gearbox, and I can't move the selector into park anyway, so I'll need to pull the selector apart to find the other end of the cable to operate it manually.
Moving onto the theoretical bits. I've been having a little think about the transmission side of things, 4WD is a must, because it's a Celica, and just should be 4WD by rights. The Celica wheelbase is 2535mm and width is 1750mm, looking at the Audi A4 quattro, bellhouse patter matches the V8, wheelbase is +80mm longer and -20mm narrower, which should, without too much tweaking, but the driveshaft ends near each wheel. Then I'd need to make an Audi/Toyota hybrid hub to join it all together, but as I said, this bit is theory at the moment and may need revising.
dgh938peg
10-03-2011, 11:13
Whoa big boy!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
This should be interesting.... My concern is you'll have a lot of weight well forward ... might it be better to make her RWD rather than 4WD so you can perhaps shift the engine back a bit further?
But the TwoB ethos is there my friend!!!
Should be an interesting project for sure!!
Great project, I'll be watching this with interest, the V8 looks suprisingly compact compared to the 3VZ! Good luck!
i think we push up the price of 3vz, good luck
cdwood2010
10-03-2011, 21:16
Wow!
Sub'd!
Chris
The Audi running gear is a good idea, just mind the Haldex controller.
stevehall
11-03-2011, 08:44
The Audi running gear is a good idea, just mind the Haldex controller.
What needs minding about a Haldex controller? *Googles Haldex*
Haldex website says their units are only in:
Audi A3, Audi S3, Audi TT Coupé & Audi TT Roadster
It was for a TT i was looking originally, A4 may be different, but the Haldex controller, as you've probably seen, changes the bias for the 4WD system to activate, putting more rear bias on it.
Comes recommended from just about everyone i spoke to with Quattro systems.
stevehall
11-03-2011, 11:19
I thnk it's a transverse thing, the S8 & A4 are longitudinal and have a different setup;
Among European car fans "Haldex" refers to the aforementioned differential system: its most prominent use is in all transverse engine 4x4 models of the VAG group (Audi A3 and TT, Volkswagen Golf and Passat), making them non-permanent 4x4s, unlike longitudinal engine models (Audi A4, A6, A8) which use a Torsen-like differential. However, its short reaction time (only a seventh of a wheel spin) amply makes up for its non-permanent AWD (like Torsen) setup.
cdwood2010
11-03-2011, 13:10
Actually how was that v6 in the Celica.
It did cross my mind a while back as them there cars are cheap and quite nice....
Chris.
snowtigger
11-03-2011, 13:15
If I was doing a celica it would have to be a gt4 st205 with a blown engine and shove a 1 mz or 2gr in.
stevehall
11-03-2011, 13:37
I love my Celica, the MR2 is not an option for me as I'm often moving loads of crap around, to the point the rear seats are rarely up. With 225/45/R17 Eagle F1 GSD3 tyres there is not *too* much drama getting the power down, and you can launch it pretty hard, I guess the heavier engine gives the front more traction than stock. It's FWD, which some people recoil from like the plague, but I've taken it round donnington twice (while still with the 1.8) and had loads of fun. You can go for the GT4, they start from about £4k for a solid one, and need a little fiddling to get the transfer to fit with the engine. Check out Fourveesix (Fourv6 / 4veesix / fourvee6, can't remember how his username is formatted), his build thread covered it way back.
stevehall
19-03-2011, 16:54
Did a bit of rough measuring today. The Celica has about 57cm between the front driveshafts and the radiator. Using the measurements from this forum:
V8 - 51cm
Audi A4 TDI box, flange to shafts - 22.5cm (Total length 73.5cm) 16.5cm overrun
Audi A5 box, flange to shafts - 4.5cm - (Total length 55.5cm) 1cm short
The A5 box would not have room for the normal fans, but there is room for some 'push' fans to be mounted on the other side and it would all work quite nicely. Using the A4 box as planned would involve some serious shoehorning, with the motor ocupying most of the same space the bumper used to, and also shift weight quite far forward.
Need to look into finding an A5 gearbox.
Paul Woods
19-03-2011, 18:44
This is the one you need Steve, pricey though... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2008-AUDI-A5-TDI-QUATTRO-3-0-GEARBOX-CAP-CCW-/290407019794?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item439d9b7512#ht_927wt_905
stevehall
19-03-2011, 19:11
Pricey indeed, how much have you been paying Paul? Any good sources besides eBay?
Paul Woods
19-03-2011, 19:21
I'm not using the 4wd variant though Steve, i've been buying the 2wd only.... the 2wd version is under £500.
Yep, thats the OB4 gearbox... I believe this gearbox is also available in other B8 chassis cars (A4, A5, Q5), but yeah, won't be cheap!
Great project though!
stevehall
20-03-2011, 12:17
Hmm, I have a chance for getting one for £450. The right hand drive flange is broken. Seem like a good deal?
Looking into things, the A5 rear diff will be 35:9 or 43:13. So obviously I can't use the A5 box with the S8 rear diff (37:9), which is a shame, but to be expected. But the diff isn't available with the box, so I'll have to work out what it is and source seperately. Could I get some advise on this one, I feel like I'm going round in circles with the diff problem.
The A5 Box is a KMV
Code letters KMV
Allocation Model
Engine 4.2 ltr. - 260 kW S5
Ratio Final drive 29 : 8 = 3.625
Intermediate drive (beveloid gearing) 31 : 29 = 1.069
Z2 : Z1 = i
1st gear 33 : 9 = 3.699
2nd gear 41 : 19 = 2.158
3rd gear 38 : 25 = 1.341
4th gear 34 : 30 = 1.133
5th gear 34 : 37 = 0.919
6th gear 35 : 45 = 0.778
Reverse gear 29 : 9 = 3.222
Overall ratio iov. in top gear 3.014
Capacity 3.8 litres
Specification Gear oil G 052 911 A SAE 75 W 90 (synthetic oil)
Clutch actuation Hydraulic
The Rear Diff that came from this car will be either JKS or KCC, but I think it's JKS
Rear final drive 0BC
Code letters JKS KCC
Manufactured from 02.07 01.08
to
Allocation Engine 4.2 ltr. - 260 kW FSI 4.2 ltr. - 260 kW FSI
3.0 ltr. - 176 kW TDI
3.0 ltr. - 155 kW TDI
Ratio Final drive
Z2 : Z1 35 : 9 = 3.889 43 : 13 = 3.308
Drive shaft flange Ø 75.5 mm 75.5 mm
Capacity 0.9 litres
Specification Gear oil G 052 145 A1 (container size 0.5 litre)
Gear oil G 052 145 S2 (container size 1.0 litre)
So, question time. Is there some way I can work out what ratio rear diff I'm going to need? Can I just turn the gearbox input and work out the prop:front driveshafts ratio, and then that's the diff ratio I need to match, or could that give a false reading due to funny central diff mechanisms?
stevehall
20-03-2011, 20:09
Well, an evening trip to Slough and I have this gearbox for £450
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190503263846&ssPageName=ADME:B:BOEO:UK:1
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/151.jpg
Interestingly this was originally bolted to a 4.2L V8, so It will be interesting to see if the diff interferes with the engine block.
Paul Woods
21-03-2011, 06:41
Um, it looks like the whole diff is missing from that Steve?
stevehall
21-03-2011, 08:58
Yes!
This was of great concern to me when I rocked up and had a look. The car had been in a crash and the actual driveshaft flange was slightly cracked, but he removed the whole diff for some reason. I spoke to him about this and he gave me the old diff and cracked driveshaft flange, the diff appears fine and free moving. Obviously I'll need to source a spare flange though and more closely inspect the diff.
Loving it !
in regard to audi 4wd's IIRC there is the quattro system and the haldex system. The quatro is the proper full time torsen 4wd and the haldex, which is a fwd 2wd system until it senses slip and then puts power to the rears. It use to be nice and simple with VAG using quattro for the torsen system and 4wd for haldex. Now it muddies the water and calls everything quattro
stevehall
29-03-2011, 08:49
Haviing a headahce trying to start the engine up for the first time. Keys, and fuel pump.
Fuel pump, this is missing. For the fueling once the engine is swapped I've bought a 255lph HRC pump (don't fancy a whiney Walbro) that will fit in the celica. I'm going to rig this up to the Audi for the test runs. Only I'm not sure weather to try and fit it into the S8 tank, or make a mini fuel tank out of an old jerry can. The Audi tank is quite complicated (deep and uses scavenger pipes), and without the correct pump would require a long hose to pick up fuel from the bottom of the tank and would possibly suffer fuel starvation unless I fill the tank with about 50L of fuel.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/03/1.gif
Key, as said is missing. Trying to convince a locksmith to help you bypass an imobiliser without supplying a key scares a lot of them off. Local Audi dealer said they would for the best price, but I have to take the car to them, which is hard. I've also got to get around the V5 problem. The guy who I bought from just sent me the whole V5, which is registered in the previous guys name. I've spoken the the current registered keeper, who isn't very helpful, but may be convinced to sign the damn thing and post to the dvla so I can get a new transponder coded.
Bit boring I know, but thought I'd say where things are at the moment. Any suggestions on the Audi fuel supply would be good.
dgh938peg
29-03-2011, 08:56
Not being funny fella but i'd get the missus to sign the V5 in his name with a different pen. It's not like he'll complain about it...
cdwood2010
29-03-2011, 08:59
Hi Steve,
If youre just testing it, i would go with a jerry can. That way you can see what the fuel is doing (feed and return) etc.
V5 - i'm pretty sure that if you send it to DVLA (send it recorded - i always do) and just leave the signature of the seller blank or put an X on there. Technically by not notifying DVLA of a change of keeper / legal owner you are breaking one of their stupid rules. DVLA will accept the fact that you are trying to bring the ownership up to date.
IMHO anyway.
Maybe give them a call? (Swansea not regional) They are, on occasion, quite helpful.
HTH
And how about some pics?
Chris.
stevehall
29-03-2011, 09:25
I tried calling the DVLA about it, but just got "We're busy, f*ck off". Didn't even let me sit in a queue. I'll give them another try today. I'm quite practiced in forging signatures (as part of banking for my business, all 3 partners are never in the same town, let alone room), but I don't even know his name to forge as it's registered to a business... ... Which might mean I can get away with any old signature.
cdwood2010
29-03-2011, 09:29
Yeah, i would go with monkey scribble signature. I really dont think DVLA will give a shit so long as someone is sticking their hand up and saying "its mine" - at least thats the impression i always got from them.
Chris.
Yep, they're not bothered about you getting the car falsely, they just want a body to hit with any future fines.
Bunch of cunting twat faced arseholes that they are.
dgh938peg
29-03-2011, 10:39
Bunch of cunting twat faced arseholes that they are.
You feel quite strongly about this i take it! :rofl:
cdwood2010
29-03-2011, 11:05
Bunch of cunting twat faced arseholes that they are.
I'm sensing some tension here.....
:)
Chris.
you guys DO make me laugh out loud!
I'm sensing some tension here.....
:)
Chris.
stevehall
29-03-2011, 15:40
Right went for a scribble signature and sent it to the cunting twat faced arseholes :rofl:, it's currently in the name of a business, so here's hoping they'll accept anything. Didn't bother with recorded delivery, that's a bit of a joke service, it's not traced at all, just when it gets to it's final location they will peel of a sticker and scan it. Only useful if you're sending something to someone who may deny receiving it. Special delivery is a proper service, but costs a bit.
While that's going through the motions I can start making this mini fuel tank. Good job I have a fire extinguisher. :blowup:
cdwood2010
29-03-2011, 15:57
Yeah, I just like to prove the fucktards got the logbook - had them go missing in the past and on one occasion it almost cost me dearly. Thank god I could quite literally back it up with paperwork!
Soon as a car leaves my hands these days I send a barrage of documentation to those guys.
Yeah, barsterds......
Chris
Aye, £400 and a crushed car cunts. Not a fan.
Looks to be a Fabulous Project. :thumbsup:
I thought a V6 & 4wd was Exotic
Good luck on the project !
I'll stop by often to see the progress.
stevehall
23-04-2011, 12:20
Had a bit of setback on this project. I'm trying to get this to work with the Audi ECU, but I didn't get a key with the car. So obviously need to get a new one coded. After phoning round various auto locksmiths, the consensus was I had to take it to Audi. They made me buy a new key and bring the whole car to them on a flatbed for coding. A bit of pain, but would be a lot cheaper than sorting out a standalone ecu.
So, I got the key bought, and the car there, they plug it in, and no communications, manage to fiddle with the wiring (The loom from the OBD-II socket had melted into a mess as it passed over the CAT heat sheild area) and their computer could talk to the ECU etc. They type the VIN into the computer and it kickes up "Immobiliser code not found in Audi Carport". They then tell me that it's the cars wiring's fault, tell me they can't code it and send me home.
So I'm back to square one.
New plan:
Pull engine out
Break the S8, scrap the shell
Rebuild engine
Pick up a cheap Celica shell and work on mounting, subframes, 4wd system, exhaust.
While also using the Celica as testbed for running the engine on a standalone ECU, probably Megasquirt or VEMS.
Paul Woods
23-04-2011, 13:37
Go Vems steve, i can totally recommend it :thumbsup:
Bummer about the stock ECU set back. :-(
stevehall
12-06-2011, 21:36
Things have been going a bit slow as I needed to sell a bunch of Audi to raise cash for the project. The S8 is now almost entirely stripped, so going to be chopping the car into lumps of Aluminium soon so I can cart it to the scrap dealer.
Couple of engine pics, one in, one out.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/06/95.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/06/96.jpg
Lots of gubbins piled on top as I wanted to concnetrate on getting rid of the shell, so anthing that looked important was left attached.
Not mutch left attached to the shell now, just removed the front subframe, which I'll be using to make a jig to make the custom Celica front subframe.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/06/97.jpg
Inside:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2011/06/98.jpg
You can see the overheating problem which melted the wires causing the electrical issues. I may cut this section out and keep it to use as a guide when I have to fabricate a new transmission tunnel for the Celica. Also my interesting welded on steering bar to help me move the car after I cut through the steering column on the day I got it.
Also, asking around places, I think there are companies I can send my Audi ECU off to and they'll disable the immobiliser and remove the 155mph speed limit.
Slowley but surely :icon_biggrin:
Paul Woods
13-06-2011, 06:21
Steve it's all progress mate, just keep chipping away.
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