1UZ-FE - How could you reduce its length?

[Rosssco]

Well I know this is a long, well worn subject, so lets be subjective for a mintue :tongue: And this is a random Friday discussing / musing post, so go easy..

The old query of how you fit a 1UZ between the chassis rails of a mk2 has been answered many a time, and indeed physically attempted by more than one. Failure has been the only result.

The bare maths are obvious - 1UZ (26") + E153 (16") = 42". Into a 36" space. Even Mr.Scott would struggle to find that 6" (as do we all sometimes... :icon_redface:)

However, although just about any previous attempts (I've heard of) seem to use the E153, its not a particualrly short gearbox, being a twin shaft arrangement. Newer transverse gearbox designs use 3 or 4 shafts designs, effectively shortening the overall shaft lengths, and therefore the gearbox length. Still trying to get some more confirmation, but I beleive there are a few readily available options just under the 12" length mark (we shall assume 12" inclusive of 10mm adaptor plate for the sake of arguement ). BTW the gearboxes I'm thinking of would have sufficient torque handling capcity. In 'theory' you are down to 38", again making the assumption you can get the two to interface properly (seems possible) and that the differential output and shaft are sufficiently offset from the input shaft to run alongside the UZ block (the major issue with the AB-engines, but again, seems probable /ok).

For the purpose of running a UZ in a MR2, I've assumed removal of both A/C and powersteering pumps and associated parts. From what I can see, its the crank pully that (more or less) prevents you from gaining that extra 2" space at the chassis rail. At this stage its just the alternator that runs off this pulley. So question:

You could remove the crank pulley (and machine off the shaft end), but where else could you mount and run the alternator off of? The cam / starter belt ? :icon_exclaim:

I realise there are umpteen other issues - possibly driveshaft length (or lack of on passenger side), mounting points, gear selector connections, coolant pipes. All of these are relative toughies, but are nothing without getting a engine / gearbox combo to fit..

Anyhoo, thanks for reading this regurgitated mess of info - as I said, its Friday. Please feel free to slap me down, I need a dose of reality :jump:

Ross

Ps.- Anyone know if the BMW M60 series engines are any shorter? They at least seem to have a huge sump poking of the front of the engine!

[PaulM]

Silly question but why the 1uz, stick the audi abz in, with an audi transverse box and youre there . Job done. :)

[Rosssco]

Silly question but why the 1uz, stick the audi abz in, with an audi transverse box and youre there . Job done. :)

Paul, the aim would be to maintain the east-west arrangement, where as the Audi V8 is North-South, which would mean firewall mods as a minimum.. Ideally you'd avoid any major structural mods, with only engine mounts (perhaps minor 'massaging' of chassis rails..

No specific requirement for a 1UZ, just they are light, cheap, reliable, and have scope for reliable power increases without major expense...

[AlunJ]

You could remove the crank pulley (and machine off the shaft end), but where else could you mount and run the alternator off of? The cam / starter belt ?

There're a couple of places - firstly you could run it off one of the camshafts. The heads on the 1uz are interchangeable left to right (with some parts swapping), and as a result have spaces for the distributors to be mounted at both ends of the head - use one of the blanked off flywheel facing ends and a machined adaptor to run the alternator directly or a drive to it. Or you could run it off a driveshaft as long as you didn't intend leaving the car stationary and running for any long period of time.

The ideal solution (though I'm not sure if it even exists - it SHOULD exist if any car manufacturer has their head screwed on) would be a permanently engaged starter motor that not only starts the engine but acts as an alternator when the engine's running.
edit: found links for systems like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAS_Hybrid
http://www.just-auto.com/news/volvo-hybrid-truck-uses-combined-starter-alternator-drive-motor_id73463.aspx

Can even generate a fairly significant amount of power using the temperature differential between the surface of your exhaust pipe / coolant and the outside air if you really want with a couple of peltier modules (normally used in cooling stuff like portable fridges and computer processors). It works for pacemakers and satellites amongst other things and isnt hugely different from one of the methods you can use to recover electrical power for a hybrid from the brakes.

What sorta wattage would you need it to put out?

[Paul Woods]

During my 1uz attempt i was going to try to use the oil driven motor from a 3vz radiator fan.

Attach the alternator to one of those, hook two hydraulic lines up to it and drive it off the engines oil supply, you can then mount the alternator anywhere with no belt going to it.

That was the theory anyway, wether it would have worked remains unknown.

[sketchy]

I have thought about it too.though I was thinking more cutting steel to make it fit, and going north south.(without cutting the firewall.

what would stop you putting a sprocket on the alternator and having it driven off the ring gear?
at the bottom on the front, below the starter motor. the only other real problem comes with the front pully, if its a harmonic balancer, not just something for the belt to go round.

but using a cam to drive a alternator?not saying it cant be done.but it will need to be sped up so much to give enough revs for the alternator.as it is, its almost 2:1 alternator:engine,and the crank it spinning twice as fast as the cam's, so will need some pretty fly gears cut to get it up to speed.

the oil pump driven alternator, thats pretty clever thinking,but what would it do to oil pressure when its under heavy load?(like high current draw audio,or power steering pump operation)would it provide to much back pressure to the pump,and promote starvation to other areas???worth looking at if your remote mounting your oil filter.not something Id wanna try with a big dollar motor though.

there has to be a way, its just a case of us deciding to be brutal enough to give it a go.

making a long side drive shaft is not an issue, its the short side thats a problem, as you may find the CV's will bind if the shaft gets much shorter on the short side

[Paul Woods]

Oil starvation elsewhere was a concern of mine Sketchy, just a mad idea that never got tried out, i also thought about driving a small PS pump where there would be no room for an alt and using that to drive the 3vz fan motor.

Of course there are other ways too, like having a small petrol genny up front somewhere, bit of a mad one that! Imagine hearing a combo of V8 and two stroke hurtling towards you lol

[AlunJ]

but using a cam to drive a alternator?not saying it cant be done.but it will need to be sped up so much to give enough revs for the alternator.as it is, its almost 2:1 alternator:engine,and the crank it spinning twice as fast as the cam's, so will need some pretty fly gears cut to get it up to speed.

A good condition alternator should have no problems generating sufficient power while running at less than normal speed - idling with the engine warm is where your problem would be if there was going to be one at all (nearly highest electrical load for lowest charge rate). Nothing saying that it has to be a straight 1:1 drive from the cam if that's a concern though, just use an old alternator shaft with a pulley welded to it to belt drive the smaller-pulley alternator.

TBH this is one of those areas where there're about 15 zillion ways of doing it, just automotive technology seems to be stuck in the dark ages on this. What I'd love to see manufacturers doing would be to eliminate the alternator alltogether and use some of the tricks from hybrids / bikes to top the battery back up. There're plenty of ways of generating the power you need without running it directly from the engine and sapping power (just as there're plenty of ways of significantly reducing the car's electrical loading), they just need to think outside the box a bit :icon_wink:

[Nod]

Converting your 5 speed to a 4 speed would save 4" ;)