View Full Version : 5sgte
superchargedsam
13-01-2006, 16:23
Anyone know much about this engine which uses the 5SFE bottom end and 3SGTE top end giving you a 2.2 turbo ? Have read a bit about it as this is similar to what I want to do with the twincharge project by using the 7AFE bottom end with GZE pistons and top end givin a 1.8 AGZE set up ! rekon a 2.2. would be good for some low end grunt till the tubby come ons osng but gotta read up a bit more on this first but wondered if anyone else had looked into this as looks totally twobrutalish to me !
Lo mate... toniG of imoc is building a 1.8 twincharger at the moment. I think she used a HKS kit but i'm not sure if it required quite a bit of work to fit the crank. You are best speaking to her to find out what is involved.
As far as I know all you need to do is the crank, conrods and pistons and you should be laffing (but don't take my word for it)
Have a peep at
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v98/tonigmr2/0466.jpg
What would be great would be the stroker kit, and a 20valve head.... I think you would be flying with that setup.
superchargedsam
13-01-2006, 16:54
its ok i have my plans for the twincharger well under way and I was knocked out of the bidding on all that kit and car at 8k as it went way beyond a justifyable expense and you dont need half the stuff in that kit anyway to do it (well hope not or thats my plans stuffed).
What is more interest to me is the 5SGTE idea as this would give you a 2.2 turbo engine which would be nice !
Well 5S-GTE basically 5S bottom end and 3s-gte head.... again... you can buy a stroker kit (1-2k on its own - take a peek at fensport :eek: ) or i suppose you could use the crank and conronds from a 5S-FE however i'm pretty sure that the second option would probably require a fair bit more work. I'm not sure if the GTE had a stronger crank than the 5S-FE as well.
If you wanted a 2.2litre 3S-GTE you would probably be best getting one imported from a written off jap car might be a fair bit cheaper.
The 2.2 tubbys make uber horsepower... could be awesome to see a 400bhp mk1 :poke:
superchargedsam
13-01-2006, 17:25
hmmm was thinking might be cheaper to buy the 5S bottom end and use that and but some flat top pistons to keep the cr down and do it that way ! might have to do some more research on this for now !
from what ive read the 5s bottom end is not realy up to the job and people blow em up regular was thinking about this a while ago
Driftin_AW
13-01-2006, 22:44
just using a 5S crank wont give you 2.2L as they have a larger bore also to make it 2.2. The crank by itself gives you around 2.1L
The 5S block is apparently a lot more resistant to the cracking between cylinders #2 & #3 that some 3S-GTE's suffer from.
Ideally, you would want:
5S Block
5S Crank
Forged pistons
New conrods + ARP bolts - as the stock 5S ones apparently don't like revving over the factory 6,000rpm redline
You might get away with the factory rods, but it would be risky.
Change the rods deffo.... have you ever heard the noise the 3S-FE makes when you get to 6.5k? :-\"
MegatronUK
13-01-2006, 23:57
There's a reason why Toyota's 'GE' series of engines are designated high performance and the 'FE' series as 'economy' :wink: ... I guess if they are skimping in the head design then they will elsewhere (I've heard you say that the various ancilliaries on the 3SFE are utter bobbins before, Simon).
superchargedsam
14-01-2006, 01:13
malcc i was thinking the set up u described as it would need the block and crank as I think the bore is 87 base rather than 86mm and was defo thinking decent bearings (adam) and get the crank lightened and balanced end to end along with flywheel and rods to make sure the whole roatating assembly doesnt vibrate itself to bits and allows max revs out of it. Thats bottom end then top end go for rev3 set up with a CT27 to perhaps start to have a look at the low 400bhp range with a mother of tourque curves, not thinking of building this engine for the current 1.5 but for a future project or to have a go at ten of the best with ! today was first time i had come across this idea so eager to know peoples views on it. am quite happy with the similar set up of the 7AGTE or even more common 7AGZE so the 5SGTE sounds like the next step for uber power !
Driftin_AW
14-01-2006, 10:58
I don't think a CT27 will start approaching 400hp. The most I've seen out of one is low 300's at the wheels. Probably want to go for something like a TD06 for that kind of power. Also shipping costs would probably turn the ct27 into quite an expensive upgrade.
superchargedsam
14-01-2006, 11:15
we can get the CT27 for similar price to a hybrid 26 over here but I hadnt realsied it wouldnt produce those sort of power figures so would probably have to go 06 route for the power, this is not something I am looking to do fir now but am investigating it for future project ideas and do like the idea behind it but would have a fear of what sort of power the crank could take before it snapped and that would make it an expensive upgrade getting a forged one of those made as it would be cheaper to buy the stroker kit i guess if that was the case !
HKS Stroker kit is ?2500 from fensport.... :| you might be able to get one cheaper elsewhere though.
As I was saying ?2500 would probably buy you an engine with the stoker kit already fitted and some more!
Driftin_AW
15-01-2006, 01:40
although there has been a bit of debate in the past, most people seem to agree the 5S crank is forged, just like the 3S-GE/GTE one, so it should be good for some pretty big power :)
superchargedsam
15-01-2006, 10:32
hmmm thats good to know as I had got that far in my research so thats a well useful bit of info !
johnathan
27-12-2006, 01:25
i just stumbled on this 5sgte idea on mr20c and am liking it and it would be easier for me to do i think i don't know if theres a mk1.5 using a 5sgte but i am intersted in try'n this i guess it wouldn't be a 1.5 huh? maybe a 1.7?
"i like the sound of 1.5 better though"
Paul Woods
27-12-2006, 06:37
reading through the US forums seems to reveal reliability issues with the 5s-gte....although what exactly is letting go im not sure.
I know Tim from TB Developments is developing his own 2.2l stroker kit.
The link for it is here (http://www.tbdevelopments.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=195) - The kit contais:
Custom Stroker Crankshaft 91mm Stroke
CP custom stroker pistons 86.5mm bore 9.0:1 CR
Wristpins
Locks
Rings
Big End/Main/Thrust bearings
Rear Main Seal
They sell for £1500 and then you can also get some turbos from them as well - something like the GT28RS would be much better than a TD06 - same spool, higher power rating.
superchargedsam
27-12-2006, 12:24
yeah have chatted with Tim about a few options before, he has some top quality kits and parts available and not silly dear prices either !
I know, Tim's prices are really good.
In effect, you can get an engine capable of 2bar and massive power with a turbo for 3k exc labour and supporting mods (clutch, injectors, pump etc).
johnathan
27-12-2006, 15:30
from what i read the reasons the 5sgte is reing branded that way is that peop;e being to cheap and using crappy parts
how ever they also say that you have to use forged pistons and rods or use the 3sgte rods but it seemed like people have been keeping the 5sfe rods in there and they break,snap or bend also knowing that the rods are the weak point but yeah still reading it over as i just saw it yesterday spent 6 hours reading and try'n to figure the trueth from the fake stuff the mr2oc people seem to put up there a pretty contradictory bunch there
If I was going down that route - there's no question that I'd use the forged pistons and rods and a modified crank. The block from the 5SFE is the only standard part I'd use. Everything else would be changed.
Paul Woods
27-12-2006, 18:54
hows this for an idea.....anyone heard of another one of toyotas best kept secrets? the 3RZ-FE? held captive in the hilux surf in the uk,4 cyl twink thats 2.7ltrs!!!! now,it also bolts onto an E153,interesting! imagine a fully built one of those,2.7ltrs 4 pot ,turbocharged with all the right bits,got to blow the regular 3s-gtes away with that displacement? theres a guy running around in one thats tuned to 900bhp... time to go find an old hilux surf methinks!
Paul Woods
27-12-2006, 18:59
oops i stand corrected,its 1000bhp and 900lbs/ft at 27psi lol
http://www.superstreetonline.com/featuredvehicles/130_0902_2002_toyota_celica_gts_racecar/
Paul Woods
27-12-2006, 19:01
"In order to handle more than 2 bar of boost, a set of custom JE pistons and rings have been dished out to create a boost-friendly 9.1:1 compression ratio. TRD's custom titanium connecting rods hang from-amazingly enough-the stock 3RZ crankshaft."
fookin ell!
Paul Woods
27-12-2006, 19:02
i so want a 3rz now!
Hmmm ... Gimme 9 months to get Stage 2 out of the way :)
Just been thinking ... Dangerous I know.
A 2.7 ltr 4 pot has 35% more volume than the 2.0ltr 3SGTE. So, a laggy-ish turbo, like a GT3071 or GT35R which spools in the mid 3000's would be spooling by either late 2000's or early 3000's. They can run 2 bar all day long with decent cooling. So those 3sgte's with 400bhp would be around 530/540 bhp with this setup, assuming the VE and AE of the engine is the same.
Shame it's not got the V6 noise, but what the hell!
Paul Woods
27-12-2006, 19:17
indeed,thats what i was thinking.....it also makes a guest appearance in the toyota granvia and the toyota prado in this country...theres some on ebay.....
Why don't you make a 550bhp truck then, for a laugh :)
johnathan
27-12-2006, 19:24
wow none for the americas though ?
I think we had them. I was looking at hilux surfs a while ago and remember some of them running 2.7lt engines.
I think its useless to us mk2's. 3vz, 1mz, 2gr and 1gr are the engines I would chuck in the mk2.
But it would be freakin' awesome in a 1.5, somebody do it! I mean you are saying about 1000bhp and stuff but thats going to EXTREMES. What do you reckon would be an easy turbo figure to get out of it. From what I understand you could run a pretty big turbo on this thing with out the lag of a 3s. So 350-450 Does this seam achievable?
The most powerful 1.5 around here is Nik's is'nt it with 290bhp. So 450 would be what.... A modest increase :)
Would the chassis be able to take that power? Some strengthening would be needed there!
Paul Woods
31-12-2006, 13:22
the mk1 will take that for sure.
Well, youve had to strengthen Lilly haven't you?
Sorry, that was one of those :hmm: moments.
lol
lol I just said it incase the chassis might twist with all the torque...
Paul Woods
31-12-2006, 17:17
fear yee not mere mortals,theres a cage going into her
Yeah the mk1 will take the power... its the rust that wont :twisted:
johnathan
01-01-2007, 16:37
well then my rust free toy is perfect i think i'll try this and see if my engine pop's on me or what and even if it does kill over i'll already have the mounts made for a 3sgte then
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