View Full Version : V6 + Scion Tc Charger Oil Feed
dgh938peg
16-12-2009, 11:21
Hi fellas,
Just starting designing the brackets to mount up the TRD Scion Tc Supercharger onto my 3vz (as well as mr2big's 1mz). Have a partially drawn and bob-on accurate 3D CAD model of the SC and plan on doing the front bank of the 3vz also over xmas.
Question is;
The SC requires an Oil feed and return? - from here i have (2) ideas i want to run past you guys.
Using the existing oil lube system i can stick a return into the sump no problem but pick up i am not so sure on. There is a blanked port on the body of the oil pump (1/4" bsp front bank side near the sump about 30mm up pics below). Can i use this as a feed to the SC? and if so will i need to "restrict" the flow so not to cause oil starvation to the rest of the engine?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/79.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/80.jpg
The other idea i have is to reinstate the power steering pump and use that as a feed. Now doing this will also mean running feeds around from back to front - no real issue. It will also need a sump to pick up from - again no real issue. Belt drive is already in place so a plus. It will be clean cool oil (which i could put through a cooler too) so another plus there. The only question; is would i need a bypass valve to return excess oil off back to the reservoir? Do you think this would work?
My instinct says use the P/S pump tho more complicated has a lot going for it in terms of engine life and separated systems.
Thanks in advance fellas! :thumbsup:
Hi fellas,
Just starting designing the brackets to mount up the TRD Scion Tc Supercharger onto my 3vz (as well as mr2big's 1mz). Have a partially drawn and bob-on accurate 3D CAD model of the SC and plan on doing the front bank of the 3vz also over xmas.
Question is;
The SC requires an Oil feed and return? - from here i have (2) ideas i want to run past you guys.
Using the existing oil lube system i can stick a return into the sump no problem but pick up i am not so sure on. There is a blanked port on the body of the oil pump (1/4" bsp front bank side near the sump about 30mm up pics below). Can i use this as a feed to the SC? and if so will i need to "restrict" the flow so not to cause oil starvation to the rest of the engine?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/79.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/80.jpg
The other idea i have is to reinstate the power steering pump and use that as a feed. Now doing this will also mean running feeds around from back to front - no real issue. It will also need a sump to pick up from - again no real issue. Belt drive is already in place so a plus. It will be clean cool oil (which i could put through a cooler too) so another plus there. The only question; is would i need a bypass valve to return excess oil off back to the reservoir? Do you think this would work?
My instinct says use the P/S pump tho more complicated has a lot going for it in terms of engine life and separated systems.
Thanks in advance fellas! :thumbsup:
power steering pump. now there's a creative solution.
i'm going to think on this for a bit. i'm not sure if it will like running on engine oil.
but you've certainly solved my transmission cooler issue with another car!
Thanks!
dgh938peg
16-12-2009, 13:50
LOL! I aim to please!!!
So as feasibility goes it's do-able then you think Gouky?
As far as the pump standing up to the oil surely p/s fluid is an oil and will only be a case of checking viscosities & whether the seals are up to muster?
EDIT;
tis a nice little pump and would be tucked out the way - plus look proper OEM!
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/81.jpg
in my offroading past I've used several different oils as power steering fluid substitutes and they all work in a pinch. I'm not sure how it will do for longevity.
the other thing that concerns me is the pressure levels. power steering is about 2000PSI. your supercharger is expecting 40-60psi. you'll have to meddle with the bypass valve quite a bit. and I'd definitely suggest an under-drive pulley.
this idea intrigues me and I'm curious to see where you get with it.
dgh938peg
16-12-2009, 14:06
Holy fuck! Didn't realise it was that higher pressure LOL!
I'll continue to look into it and see where it leads :thumbsup:
dgh938peg
16-12-2009, 14:33
Ok... what about fitting a motorbike oil pump as a separate entity to deal with it? should be something like the desired pressure...
From reading the distructions for fitting this Supercharger, it is designed to run off engine oil pressure....
this perhaps
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Honda-VFR400-VFR-400-NC30-Oil-Pump-Pickup-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ290347919088QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK _Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item439a15a6f0
or perhaps this?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/YAMAHA-TDR-125-97-OIL-PUMP-2-STROKE_W0QQitemZ290368425683QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item439b4e8ed3
or even
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-E30-325i-Sport-Oil-Pump_W0QQitemZ290381176468QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Ca rsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item439c111e94
stevehall
16-12-2009, 14:49
I've had a think about using a PS pump as part of a dry sump system. There are a number of problems. Firstly, as Gouky says, the PS pump is very high pressure, and engine oil will break down under those forces, so you will have to be carefull with a bypass that there is no part of the system where engine oil is held under such pressure. Also, it may have just been an air bubble problem, but when I rebuild my 3VZ in the camry to test it I refilled the PS system with engine oil (remember the Camry needs the PS pressure to run the cooling fan) and it was making a nasty scraping noise, quite possibly it needed to bleed the air out, but still something to concider.
If you have deep pockets, or keep an eye on eBay, you could get a dry sump pump to handle your oil delivery. If you're going for that, and you get a multi stage pump, it wouldn't be too much more hassle to dry sump your motor.
as Gouky says, the PS pump is very high pressure, and engine oil will break down under those forces
Near 1000psi cylinder combustion pressures (spread across the face of the piston) focussed onto your big end bearings means the oil in any piston-powered car is exposed to a fair bit more than 2000psi on it's journey through the lubrication system. If oil broke down at that sort of pressure you'd be pouring more oil than petrol into the car.
Electric oil pump from the sump through the SC then back to the sump via a cooler would be a much cheaper option that dry sump pumps etc, if for some reason you can't take a feed from the engines oil pressure sensor location like is possible on the other engines (if it has one, I'm a bit vague on the v6s).
Something like this maybe, unless you need something with a higher volume of flow?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ESTIMA-LUCIDA-OIL-RESERVOIR-ELECTRIC-PUMP-DIESEL-2-2-TD_W0QQitemZ180442312197QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Cars Parts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item2a03332e05
dgh938peg
16-12-2009, 15:51
funnily enough alun i cam across that one earlier and am watching it at the mo!
dgh938peg
16-12-2009, 16:25
My concern with the electric pump route is (particularly with an old one) failure would mean one dead supercharger. If it were mechanically driven off the aux pulley, belt snappage would mean a christmas tree dash and me pulling over immediately!
stevehall
16-12-2009, 16:50
Near 1000psi cylinder combustion pressures (spread across the face of the piston) focussed onto your big end bearings means the oil in any piston-powered car is exposed to a fair bit more than 2000psi on it's journey through the lubrication system. If oil broke down at that sort of pressure you'd be pouring more oil than petrol into the car.
I'm not just making stuff up, this is why hydraulic oil is different to engine oil.
ukpaisley
16-12-2009, 17:06
Theres no pressure without restriction, the PS pump will not produce pressure unless restriced., connect a res to it and spin it wit the battery drill with the oil you intend to use, this will dive you the output, empty into a measured container/time if its what you need the a jobs good.Then you can then put a restriction on the output with an oil presure guage and get to a pressure you need. I think that a boost control valve will give you the restriction you need , you can open it up and feed back into the res, think the output will bo ok. Lots of people will thank you for the research, good solution I think, well done.
Paul Woods
16-12-2009, 18:23
This is a no brainer for me, use the engine oil pressure to feed the SC but throttle it back with an inline restrictor.Dan if you look at the end of the oil pump housing on the 3vz you will see two blanking plugs with allen heads, one of these makes a very nice oil feed point.
Then just return the oil to the sump like the 3sgte does, i really wouldn't overcomplicate the design of the oil feed in case of failure of a belt or moving mechanical part.
Inventive idea though using the PS pump, but i will be keeping things much more simplified.
Getting the oil to operating temp would be an issue too if using the power steering pump and an oil cooler.
As it's a seperate system you'd have to get the oil into its ideal temp range which i would imagine is the same as the engines?
Would mean getting creative as using an external cooler on it, external temps would have a big effect on a small self contained hydraulic system.
dgh938peg
16-12-2009, 19:51
So this port here?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/89.jpg
You can see it runs direct to pump centre....
That was my "plan 1" Paul but was worried about oil starvation around the rest of the engine.... do you think that would be a concern or not?
Paul Woods
16-12-2009, 20:05
No not that one although that would work too.I meant the one on the filter housing, it won't starve the engine of oil either especially when restricted
dgh938peg
16-12-2009, 20:43
So you mean here right?
Which one do you reckon on using Paul; top or bottom?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/90.jpg
dgh938peg
16-12-2009, 23:07
Been doing a little CAD work lol and sketched this out in 3D (using AutoCAD) the compressor housing is a bit rough n ready but the rest of it is bob-on. Once i have the front bank of the V6 drawn up (over xmas) i'll be able to design the mounting brackets
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/96.jpg
When do you think you'll have it installed, will be interesting to see how it goes.
dgh938peg
16-12-2009, 23:17
Plan is to have it installed in a rough n ready fashion by end of Jan. then i can mod the brackets to fit the same thing onto mr2big's 1mz too. Then finish mr2bigs conversion, then mick's then mine should be back from bodyshop and ready for mapping at the beginning of March.
that's the plan anyway! :D
You got a production line going.:blink:
My concern with the electric pump route is (particularly with an old one) failure would mean one dead supercharger. If it were mechanically driven off the aux pulley, belt snappage would mean a christmas tree dash and me pulling over immediately!
True, you'd deffo know about it with the belt drive :)
I took a feed from the same location as the oil pressure sensor for pretty much the same reason, so I know for sure there's oil getting around in there and get a warning if anything major goes wrong (like an oil feed pipe breaking).
Been doing a little CAD work lol and sketched this out in 3D (using AutoCAD) the compressor housing is a bit rough n ready but the rest of it is bob-on. Once i have the front bank of the V6 drawn up (over xmas) i'll be able to design the mounting brackets
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/96.jpg
I'm quite impressed with the apparent accuracy and completeness of this drawing.
are you using a digitizer or measuring this by hand?
dgh938peg
17-12-2009, 08:23
All measured by hand using a tape, rule, micrometer, calipers and a digital vernier. What needs to be accurate is within 0.3mm, as in the mounting points, overall sizes, compressor inlet and outlet.
Like i said, the compressor housing ain't too good. AutoCAD cannot cope with drawing a reducing diameter, multi radial torus.... or to you and i, it cant draw snail shell shapes :D
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