driveshaft recognition

[lodgeman]

can you tell if the driveshaft is from a non lsd or an lsd turbo gearbox.? theres a guy that has some driveshafts but not the gearbox.

[Paul Woods]

excellent thread alan and one that needs addressing! moving to technical.

Here is the stuff ive managed to gather up to now,bear with me as the info on the net is a bit misguided and confusing,hopefully this thread will clear a few things up.

On the supported output shaft,these are the dimensions at the diff end..
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2005/12/56.jpg

And heres LSD (left) v non LSD (right) supported shafts,there is a difference between them at the spline but its very little and both shafts work in LSD and non LSD box's,although from what i gather some people machine 1/10th of an inch off each step on the non LSD shaft so that the splines sit 1/10th further into the diff,but its not needed.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2005/12/57.jpg

Ive no pics as yet of short side stub axles for comparison between lsd and non but heres a useful piece of identifying info...

On the stub axle theres a lock ring near its end...lsd axles have 1/4 inch from lock ring to tip of shaft(diff side)
non-lsd axle have 1/8 inch.

I'll update as i find more,if anyone else can do the same preferrably with pics it would be great.

[MegatronUK]

As you all know, I've been having major problems with my gearbox; specifically the limited slip diff unit, since installation. I've been unable to buy another lsd gearbox anywhere and the current plan was to get another LSD unit and install it... or bang Pauls non-lsd box in and take my to get reconditioned.

Well my dad began taking the driveshafts out and partially disassembling the gearbox today in preperation of me buying the new diff from Mark Edwards on IMOC. In addition to the non-lsd box from Paul, he also lent us a LSD input flange to try... here are some worrying results:

http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/comparison_1s.jpg
http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/comparison_1.jpg

http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/comparison_2s.jpg
http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/comparison_2.jpg

http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/comparison_3s.jpg
http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/comparison_3.jpg

The three driveshafts are (from top to bottom, and the same order right to left) - my long side driveshaft, my short side driveshaft, Pauls shortside flange.

It's immediately apparent that the driveshafts that I have got with my limited slip gearbox are not the same as the ones Paul has pulled from his LSD 'box.

http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/shortside_mine_1s.jpghttp://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/shortside_woodsy_1s.jpg
http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/shortside_mine_1.jpg
http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/shortside_woodsy_1.jpg

Note that the splines on Pauls LSD flange are much longer than those on mine... the entire end of the driveshaft is a good 5mm in length from the third metal shoulder to the end face. The circlip is in almost exactly the same place on both ends, but on mine there is only 2-3mm of splined shaft, whereas on the other flange there is quite obviously much more.

My dad also said that our short side driveshaft was extremely difficult to remove and the circlip on the end was broken when it came out (whether that was the cause or an effect is unknown).

The diff itself appears fine, from what we can see - there are no nasty bits of metal or shavings in the casing.

http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/diffhousing_1s.jpg http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/diffhousing_2s.jpg
http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/diffhousing_1.jpg
http://www.target-earth.net/static/mr2/diffhousing_2.jpg

At this point I'm not entirely sure what to do.. I do have a feeling that we are getting somewhere though. It just didn't make sense that the gearbox should be fine and the diff working great at times but not at others.... but if the driveshafts are to fault, then it could well explain it; perhaps the splines not all the way in when you put lock on (and thus the inner wheel tries to pull itself out of the diff)

I'm not sure. But whatever the case, I don't think a new diff will solve it.

New driveshafts?

(x-posted to IMOC)

[lodgeman]

looks like i have just bought some turbo non lsd driveshafts from a guy on imoc - so i should be abble to help maybe, that will also mean that i will have a spare set of st185 drive shafts if anyone requires them?

[MegatronUK]

Check out my 'Driveshaft Hell - Revisted' thread... It looks suspiciously like my 'lsd' driveshafts are not... going on Pauls description above.

[welly_59]

by going from what paul said in the other thread, maybe it sounds like your short-side shaft is actually not an lsd one? someonce could compare for u

[Paul Woods]

john just read this...you have def got non lsd shafts! now i suspect this is exactly why you have been having a problem.Which is bloody good news! all you have to do is get your mits on a LSD output flange for the left short side,the supported output shaft is practically the same for lsd and non (1/8th " difference in splines but shouldnt make a difference)

Do you mind if i move this post to al's one on shaft comparisons as you have some excellent pics in this thread.

[Paul Woods]

threads merged to keep all the shaft pics in the same place.

[superchargedsam]

John does this mean there is a rev1/SC LSD going spare now then ? nudge nudge wink wink !

[Paul Woods]

sam you're a feckin vulture sittin on his garage roof just waiting...lol noit just means he needs an lsd output flange (throws a big stick at said vulture to scatter it)

[superchargedsam]

was gonna start this reply with vulture squarks but god knows what noise a vulture makes ! You know me hate to see a good LSD go to waste and considering I have 2 SC boxes and niether are LSD this would be ideal as from what John says they interchange between rev 1 tubby and SC box !

[MegatronUK]

That's only the TRD unit that's interchangeable mind!

[superchargedsam]

flaps wings and flys off now then !

[JB]

looks like i have just bought some turbo non lsd driveshafts from a guy on imoc - so i should be abble to help maybe, that will also mean that i will have a spare set of st185 drive shafts if anyone requires them?
Are you sure Alan?:think: Won't you need your ST185 shafts to go with your Camry supported shaft to get your lengths right or are you going with the turbo supported and drive shafts and adjusting support bearing location?
Just checking8-[

[lodgeman]

the only reason for the swap is because i dont have the small input shaft that goes in the non lsd diff and the only way that i can get one is by buying the whole shaft.and the guy only wants ?40 for the pair so thinking it might save time? just swap the cvj's over?i have the turbo supported shaft anyway.

[superchargedsam]

heard you the first time fella !
:wink:

[lodgeman]

only did it to get 1000 posts :lolyawn: oh bugger its 1001 now!:lol2: back to 1000 now!!!!!!!!!!

[Paul Woods]

alan i think what JB means is using the turbo supported shaft may mean relocating the bearing carrier on it.....you need to use your st1*5 shafts with the v6 auto supported shaft,the left side short one will bolt straight onto that non lsd turbo flange you are buying.....does that make it a bit clearer?

[lodgeman]

yes i understood what jb meant but depending on condition of the shafts they might be better than the ones i bought and only just looked at!:-k the gaiters are broke on both shafts and i spent some time last night on the two brutal initiation ceremony that is replacing steel balls in cages.:wtf: read the posts and saw the pics and did all i was told-:shrug: but when it was all together there was no movement in the unit apart from the cage.:wierd: but then after a while decided to rest it on a tin of tomato puree which gave me the extra height to fix the balls at the bottom of the centre piece not the top -which then sorted the problem:smile: so the moral of the story..... use tomato puree tin when reassembling balls :lmao: . adam didnt mention that in his write up did he!!!!!

[superchargedsam]

any particular make of tommy puree then lodge ?

[lodgeman]

well i prefer princes but i suppose any small tom puree will do :lolyawn:

[MegatronUK]

Got a nearside LSD driveshaft (long spline type, as with Pauls, above) from GTSChris, it's not cheap - but it's cheaper and easier than trying a new diff .... I'm off to pick it up tomorrow. Hopefully should have it fitted tomorrow evening in time to give the car a run out on saturday.

Will update the thread with my progress.

[Paul Woods]

good luck john,i hope this sorts it out mate.

[MegatronUK]

Right, the judges have voted, the results are in.....

Picked up an LSD driveshaft from gtschris up in bedlington this afternoon and it is now fitted.

The result is....










:D
Much, much improved different action! Yay! You can now definitely feel the clutch plates working as you move forwards/reverse with lock on. The banging and locking is now very reduced compared to before. All noises from the short side have gone.. however there is still a 'bumping' from the long side although it's a lot less violent than previously - this tends to happen more pulling away from a junction and much, much less while manouevering the car forward/backward/round corners/up onto the curb etc..

Conclusion? I don't think there is anything wrong with the diff at all - it works nicely and has a nice feel to it; more aggressive than the later type (you can certainly feel it working more so than other types). It's definitely driveshaft-based as the symptoms have dissappeared from one side (which was previously the worst), but remain to a lesser extent on the other.

Overall it's now a very driveable car - Paul will confirm that it was awful before; something you wouldn't like to drive and would feel uncomfortable doing so.

[Gary Symons]

Good news indeed, so these rev LSDs we have are ok then? :righton:

[MegatronUK]

Yeah, nice action! :D

[podge]

nice john good to see its coming together mate

[adamh]

must be pleased after the pita thats been. i dont know much about ls diffs, do you prefer with then?

[lodgeman]

megatron -just in case that isnt the answer there is a rev3 g/box and shafts on imoc

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26602

[Paul Woods]

thats superb news john,over the moon for you....the guy that sold you that gearbox with shafts needs shooting for saying it all came from the same car,which it clearly didnt!

The remaining noise you have...id hazard a guess that thats the standard noise people are describing with certain LSD's....many many mk2 owners have used the non LSD supported shaft on an LSD box without issue,look at me im using a camry V6 shaft....id be very surprised if the noise went away completely with a LSD supported shaft as theres very little difference in them.

Anyway great news! can i have my gearbox back please? lol

Oh whats your plans for the spare shaft you got? can i buy that off you for its balls?

[MegatronUK]

:evil:

Scratch that. It's still effin' sh*t.

Fine in the car park, but took the car out today to the mk1 meeting and we realised that as soon as we had gone a few hundred yards up the road that it was no better.

Had enough of it :mad:

This piece of crap is coming out this week, and if it's ok with you Paul I'd like to use that gearbox of yours while we destroy/examine/recondition* (delete as applicable) this lsd one. I'm sick of not being able to use the car - if it means running with just a normal box then fine... I really am quite pissed off with it all.

[Gary Symons]

Sounds like a right PITA! Keep the faith and all that....

[Paul Woods]

bloody hell john! wtf's going on?? yes by all means use the spare gearbox mate,thats what its there for....thats got me totally confused now,and it was all looking so promising as well.

Never mind though mate,chin up,soon have this last glitch sorted and you can start to enjoy her.

[MegatronUK]

Right, Pauls non-LSD gearbox was fitted and all bolted up last night. One driveshaft is in and the other is to fit tonight.

Hopefully this will solve the problem :(

[superchargedsam]

sorry to here you have such a problem with this fella and after you got the engine runnng well as well ! cant wait to see what you think once all running A1 !

[Paul Woods]

problem solved! john senior came over in megatrons 1.5 today and the non lsd box has cured the problem,thank god for that!

[Marksman]

Great news! Hopefully that's another rite of passage out of the way and now the newest 1.5 can be enjoyed to the full. Well done chaps!

On the gearbox front I understand that the factory LSD box uses specific LSD drive shafts. However if one was to buy an aftermarket LSD and fit it to a normal open diff box then I presume the standard drive shafts would be OK. Is this asumption correct?

Cheers,

Owen.

[Paul Woods]

i really wouldnt like to say.... id guess at no,id think an aftermarket lsd would be modelled on the factory lsd and therefore would need lsd output stubs....well stub! only the left side needs changing.

[aigochamaloh]

Sorry to bump this up but I need some help. I am having a hard time finding a LSD stub for the passenger side here.

I have the driver side stub for a 91 non-LSD and a 93 LSD. From what I've read, either will work in a LSD box just fine.

I have a 91 non-LSD for the passenger side and it will not go into the box. Paul, you stated in the first post of this thread that it should work? All the threads on MR2oc about machining the stub to fit do not clarify on what exactly to machine on the stub.

[Paul Woods]

Define "it will not go into the box" please mate

[aigochamaloh]

The splines are correct, and it will slide in up to a point, but leave a nice gap on the passenger side. I will be home again next week and will take a picture of it.

[terryo]

I recently wrote this short article and it might help answer some questions about E series LSD driveshafts
http://www.roadandtrack.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=1&Itemid=