V6 water pump discovery!

[Paul Woods]

We have made a bit of a breakthrough here!

In doing a v6 conversion we have always fitted brand new water pumps as part of the job, but on some v6 swaps a few people have reported that if the engine is left to idle for long periods of time, especially after a bit of a thrash, they would start to very slowly overheat.A quick blip of the throttle and the temp would settle to normal again.

Now it occurred to us that this was no normal fault, if the thermostat was faulty it would overheat all the time,or stay stone cold... if the radiator was partially blocked it too would give a constant problem.You also have to factor in the fact that not everyone has seen this little oddity with the coolant temp.Indeed all systems are checked for fan operation, rad switches checked and systems fully bled.

So what was causing the odd V6 mr2 to heat soak around the engine if left to idle but not others?

Well we put in a lot of time into this one, mainly because if we are fitting brand new water pumps,thermostats and doing everything by the book then what else can we do as mechanics?

We have been getting our water pumps from our local parts supplier that i have been using for the last ten years, he only supplies good quality parts, none of the cheap rubbish you can buy off ebay or from china.Normally it is a QH (Quinten Hazel) water pump we would use, who are a reputable make of spurious parts, and it was only last month when we happened to have a QH pump on the bench, a genuine Toyota one and a Blueprint pump all side by side that we stumbled on something VERY important.

It appears that different makers of spurious pumps have DIFFERENT designs of pump impellor blades!

Take a look at the pic below....
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/07/23.jpg

Notice anything odd? Both of these pumps are brand new 3vz-fe pumps, the one on the right is a QH pump and the one on the left is a Blueprint pump.You can see the impellor design is completely different between the two..... we compared them both to the genuine toyota pump which shared the same design as the Blueprint pump on the left.

So, we then fitted the new Blueprint pump to a conversion we did that was having the mystery heatsoak issue and after a quick bleed up of the system it was 100% cured.

What is basically happening here is that the QH pump impellor is not moving enough coolant at engine idle, probably fine for a camry with its short run to the radiator but on an Mr2 it was just lacking enough push unless it was given a little blip of the throttle now and then.

We have spoken to QH directly about this, who were initially shocked that their pump design was not the same as toyotas, and they have promised to change the design.Wether they do or not remains to be seen!

So this is an important find, you presume by fitting a brand new water pump that you are doing everything in your power to do a good job, sometimes you have to look into it a little deeper.

Bottom line is if you do buy a QH pump make sure it has the same impellor design as the pump on the left.Otherwise buy a Blueprint one that shares the toyota design.

To date we have no idea which conversions we have personally done have which design of pump, it may or may not have been one design or the other, who knows! All i do know we have been fitting new pumps to them all.Ironically if we left the old knackered toyota pumps on (presuming of course nobody ever changed it during its life on the camry) the issue would never have been spotted.

So a bit of an important cooling system breakthrough this one, up to now it only applies to the 3vz, 1mz pumps appear to be all the same.

Hopefully this new information helps you lads out.

[cmuxx]

Mine gets very hot at idle

[Paul Woods]

Yours is a 1mz though chris,all of their pump designs appear to be the same..... are you seeing actual overheating if it is left to idle or just a constant higher temp?

[Lee]

Hi Paul,

Is there anything QH can do to help out owners with this problem?

A change of design and a discount for a new pump as a gesture of goodwill seem fair?

How much is the blueprint pump?

[antnkel]

Yours is a 1mz though chris,all of their pump designs appear to be the same..... are you seeing actual overheating if it is left to idle or just a constant higher temp?

Mine seems fine, hardly ever changes on the gauge :angel:

[Paul Woods]

QH are not prepared to refund anyone in this case.Even though they have been told it is a problem, bottom line being the pump works ok in a camry so the buck stops with us having the V6 in an Mr2.All they have said is they will revise the design.... not much good to us now.

The blueprint pump is around £60.

As above it is not affecting everyone, but then we do not know who has one type and who has another.

[cmuxx]

Yours is a 1mz though chris,all of their pump designs appear to be the same..... are you seeing actual overheating if it is left to idle or just a constant higher temp?

Just at idle if left for a long time it doesn't overheat because i stop it before it gets there, I had thought that it was because there was no air moving throught the rad because when the fans come on it is for a very short time only just enought to cool the water in the rad not long enough to get to the motor.
It's not a problem because I know it does it.

[Paul Woods]

Thats a good bit of info, looks like QH are using a cheap cast part.

Another pump that uses the same design as the blueprint one is "First line", FWP1642 is its part number.

Indeed Tone, it has taken us months to totally investigate this, good info on the First line part number too :thumbsup:

It should be noted we have only heard of one or two cars even seeing this issue, but we needed to get to the bottom of it regardless.

[hmmmmm]

Nice find paul, just checked my ebay water pump (not fitted yet) and looks like its the right design.

[tripod23]

i know this is a little stupid but i read somewhere that in the swap over the coolant accually runs in the wrong direction , is this true or just an old wives tail. also iv got to say that the temp gauge in the n/a still factory standard at the moment touch wood has never moved away from halfway even when left to tick over for a long time. and i have done the same test with the camry donor car which is a 1mz - which i know is a shorter coolant run but same again it seems perfect even when left to idle . i would have thought that if the after market pump matches what toyota had in there to begin with we should be fine after all theres more coolant running in the mr2 surely over the camry . do we need a bigger rad for the n/a swap over do we think

[Paul Woods]

It makes no difference which way you run the coolant, the Mr2 system is symmetrical , the rad inlet/outlets are in the same relative place and the rad will take flow in either direction.

The only point that had been previously raised on a US forum was the position of the rad fan switch... on a mk2 it is on the drivers side, on a mk1 it is on the passenger side of the rad.Now depending on which way you flowed coolant in relation to the switch "could" i suppose have some bearing on how the fan works, but we know it works either way maybe with just a slightly different form of operation.

[stevehall]

Interesting find, my water pump from Mizumoauto (American eBay) uses the left (Toyota) design.

[Paul Woods]

So it is looking more likely this is just a QH pump design, the market leader as well.... nice eh?

If folks could keep adding new found makes of pump design to this thread it would be extremely helpful.

Good
Blueprint ADT 39135
Genuine Toyota 16100-69455
First line FWP1642
Mizumoauto (American eBay)

Bad
QH (Quinten Hazel) QCP 3261

[tripod23]

good work paul this is why twobrutal is a top website all the info is priceless and this write up is a very important read for swappers who are doing the work themselves - as we all like to say a few quid here and on parts as genuine items can be costly...........but im thinking that trying to save a few pounds could cost someone their v6 QH HAVE A BIG NAME LETS SEE HOW QUICK THEY ALTER THE DESIGN..............................

[pilotpete]

I noticed the temp on mine was creeping up towards hot when I had the aircon' on and I was barely moving on a hot day driving through a showground to our stand. Makes me keep an eye on the guage.

[RandomHero]

just an FYI (for the americans)i guess:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/92-93-Toyota-Camry-3-0-L-3VZ-FE-Timing-Belt-Water-Pump_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q 7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksid Zp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem3c9bf05a9bQQitemZ26031 4258075QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries
this looks good too. ebay didnt have any waterpump only auctions.

autozone duralast seem to look good
http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/additional-prod-images/en/US/asc/BWP-781/3/image/8/





thanks for the info on this. ive had my 3vz over heat on my while idling after a thrashing, and i didnt like it. has me worried about sitting in traffic. but i guess with a good water pump design it might help the problem (if this was my problem).

[tripod23]

has anybody with a 1mzfe engine had this problem at all................this situation once i have done the swap is something i have been thinking about because it would really upset me if it started to overheat after i gone to all the trouble of swapping....................more comments of swapped mr2 needed to confirm results

[Paul Woods]

As i said before simon we have never seen it on any 1mz, maybe QH use the proper design on those or prehaps we have used a blueprint pump on those occasions, it is not something i had ever taken time to acknowledge during fitting..... well you wouldn't would you? Buy new pump, take it out of the box and fit it.... nobody ever starts analysing the blade design on a new pump, you just accept it is fit for purpose really.

[tripod23]

yeah i know what your saying paul your right i wonder how many other makes of cars out there maybe having the same issue customers will be taking cars back to garages - and the techs will be scratching their heads [ well weve fitted a new pump it must be this this and this ] just give us your money - [ absolute nightmare ] good work tho paul

[Paul Woods]

Good
Blueprint ADT 39135
Genuine Toyota 16100-69455
First line FWP1642
Mizumoauto (American eBay)
autozone duralast (US)


Bad
QH (Quinten Hazel) QCP 3261

[biteme]

Think this could be worth a sticky?

[Paul Woods]

Absolutely mate, sticking now.

[Garbe]

well researched lads.

[adamh]

bravo guv.

[Marksman]

Nice work Paul :thumbsup: Had me worried for a while as we've taken delivery of a batch of the things for our shop. After some crossed fingers we found this...

http://www.swatmotorsport.co.uk/catalog/images/waterpump.jpg

Thank gawd for that. I forgot to note the brand but I'll add it to the list next time.

Owen.

[Paul Woods]

If you could owen that would be great :thumbsup:

[blue2]

Im one of the cases that was affected by this issue. I have been wracking my brains for near enough a year as to what it could be thats causing the temp to rise. The only and I mean the only thing I havent replaced was the water pump as I had a new one fitted by Paul at the conversion. I have spent a fortune on investigation including a £1000 bill from toyota to have the pipes from hell replaced, ive had 2 radiators in the space of a year, 2 thermostats, 3 coolant changes and a new fan. Basically my car has a new cooling system. Unfortunatly I got so pissed off with it, I went out and bought a new car 3 weeks ago.
However I am soooooo made up now to find out that its a simple case of fitting a new water pump. I never guessed it would be the cause, Ive checked and double checked for leaks but to no avail.
Down side I guess is I paid out so much plus a new car,
Up side is after replacing the water pump Ive got a car with a new cooling system that shouldnt go wrong again!
Anyone know how much it costs to have these fitted and if they are easy to fit yourself? Nice one Paul for finding a solution!

[Barronmr]

Hi again,

Indeed from your description on imoc it sounded just like the symptoms caused by the poor waterpumps.

The pump should be available from a local motorfactors who will be able to confirm the maker of the pump, just check it against the list in this thread then. There's also one seller on ebay whose pictures confirm one of the better designs for £70.48 + 7.99 P&P.

[Portgordon]

Excellent bit of detective work there as always Paul! magic find.

My 3Vz-FE suffers from this - not the end of the world though as a quick blip on the throttle settles it all back down again, although not ideal if you leave the car idleing for whatever reason.

Something for the ToDo list I guess, replace the water pump!

Cheers Paul. top work!

[Paul Woods]

No problem mate, every day's a school day so they say.

[blue2]

Just a quick question, Ive just ordered my new water pump, just need to know if its a straight forward diy job. If not does anyone know how much it costs to have fitted, roughly? Thanks guys!

[Paul Woods]

Hi dan, it is typically a 2-3 hour job that involves removing the timing belt and drivers mount, perfectly doable in situ though but can be a little tricky if you have never worked on a camry v6 before.

[blue2]

Thanks Paul, not something I want to attmept then, glad its not too tricky though.

[jon.sole]

I've just purchased a water pump from E-Bay from an outfit called IezuraParts, turns out to be one of the 'good' designs. Bit of a bargain at £21 inc. delivery :)

[biteme]

Great news, Jon. Let's just hope it works out ok for you :thumbsup:

[knightrous]

I've just picked up a GMB water pump for my 1MZ.
Has anyone experience any of the aforementioned cooling problems with this design?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/09/147.jpg

[Paul Woods]

We haven't had any pump problems with the 1mz but i think that is because they all look like the Toyota design, that's the first 1mz pump i've seen with the cast impellor that was giving us problems on the 3vz..... i can pretty much guarantee you will see heatsoak issues at idle using that pump. It needs to look like the pump on the left in the original pic.

[decipherer]

Hmm.. I'm quite sure the original toyota water pump I have here for a 1MZ has a similar impellor design as the one shown by knightrous. Since I'm moving house I'm not exactly sure where I left it, but I'll try to take a picture today.

-edit- I just remembered having a picture of it on photobucket, so here it is:

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/09/148.jpg

I can not comment on whether or not this is a good design, but it is at least toyota's design.

[Torero]

good work paul this is why twobrutal is a top website all the info is priceless
+1:thumbsup:

Excellent find Paul, it's the sort of thing that can only be discovered when you're constantly working with same components and something catches an experienced eye. You must have had a Eureka moment when you picked it up.

EDIT:I've only just spotted this thread but good work just the same

[cmuxx]

We haven't had any pump problems with the 1mz but i think that is because they all look like the Toyota design, that's the first 1mz pump i've seen with the cast impellor that was giving us problems on the 3vz..... i can pretty much guarantee you will see heatsoak issues at idle using that pump. It needs to look like the pump on the left in the original pic.

I mentioned earlier that I had had a tickover heat isuue on my MZ however, since I installed your ally rad it has not been an issue and as I mentioned I took it down to (Italy earier this year pretty warm there). I think that it is because it is much free'er flowing.
As an aside, on the original rad the fan only came on for a very few seconds, cooling only slightly the water in the rad. With the new rad this is not the case.

[pistol pete]

Hi dan, it is typically a 2-3 hour job that involves removing the timing belt and drivers mount, perfectly doable in situ though but can be a little tricky if you have never worked on a camry v6 before.

I have this issue with my 3vz, as explained on first post..
so need to change my water pump, is it doable in location on a mk1?

thanks
Pete

[cdwood2010]

I have this issue with my 3vz, as explained on first post..
so need to change my water pump, is it doable in location on a mk1?

thanks
Pete

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2016/07/193.jpg

[pistol pete]

Oh.. that bad is it..

[cdwood2010]

Nah, i just like to chuckle a lot at Mk1's. I've done them in situ on Mk2's, you dont need that much room plus you can raise / lower the end of the engine. I would give it a go, the hardest part is going to be getting the belt back on and lined up. I've got a couple of plastic mirrors (the ones that you get in a clipper set) that i use for that kind of stuff.

There's others on here that will be able to say exactly how to do it, but tbph, i would be surprised if it wasn't achievable.

:) c.

[pistol pete]

cool thanks matey.. i get one ordered then go from there :)

Just so i know to give it crack..