View Full Version : mk1.5 gearbox questions...
just been consdering some things, and am thinking about gearboxes and ratios.
used the search function to good effect, ive managed to figure out the E153 mk2 turbo ratios, and the S54 (mk2 N/A?) ratios, plus the US market S54 ratios.
in terms of what im considering, the S54 UK box is probably useable, but first and second gear are too long. the S54 US box is shorter all round but probably still useable for top end. the E153 is the best all round, its short at the bottom and long at the top and would probably be the best suited box, if a little long in 5th
however, im totally new to the whole mk1.5 concept, my considerations have never stretched past super tuned 4A-GE's, and more recently 2ZZ engines. but the 2ZZ is an expensive and complicated swap for not a lot of power (220bhp at a push normally aspirated), whilst the 3S-GTE can do that standing on its head straight out of the box!
so my questions are...
1. are final drives interchangeable on these boxes for ones from other models? and if so, what are the shortest final drives you can get in the S54 and the E153 boxes?
2. are first gears changeable to something longer?
3. what is the most power people have run through the S54 and E153 reliably with a turbo motor?
4. as #3, but for the driveshaft options! with the driveshafts that are used for these conversions, what is the most power you can push through the S54 and E153 driveshaft setups?
any info is greatly appreciated. if i can establish a gearbox option that will work for me then i will start collecting 3S-GTE parts and head along the mk1.5 path i think, instead of spending the same money on a 2ZZ-GE and then having to turbo it later because its too slow for the rest of the car
P.S...
5. are there any LSD options on the above gearboxes? im guessing there are LSD's already fitted to all/some of the E153's, and plenty of aftermarket options?
robwsurf
01-02-2009, 21:10
mk1 standard box wont fit 3sgte engine use turbo box can change final drive with celica box
that was supposed to say mk2, not mk1. im not sure what the S54 comes from, but from what i can tell it is the normally aspirated mk2 box, as well as used on some camrys and stuff.
the turbo box is the E153 correct? any ideas what the celica box final drive actually is?
The LSD from the mk1 SC is interchangeable with the diff from the rev1 E153 box, if i remember correctly. Theres also aftermarket diffs to fit the turbo box if the box you buy doesnt have an LSD.
is the gearbox out of an AE101 Levin an E153 does anyone know? i know where theres one sat with an LSD in it that i could probably trade my now-surplus C64 6-speed box for. ive got a feeling its an E51, would that be of any use or will it simply not fit? im guessing it wont fit since it came off a 4A-GZE, but the diff might be useable
robwsurf
01-02-2009, 22:47
think it s a standard mk1 box if you use a turbo box some have lsd if you use a mk2 na box you want a mk3 box for the lsd to putr in mk2 na box
yeh ive read about the mk3 LSD in the S54 boxes. just not sure what power they are good for?
robwsurf
01-02-2009, 23:10
if your building a mk1.5 just use a turbo box simple!
snowtigger
02-02-2009, 01:31
yes when building a 1.6 things get a bit difficult whish i had known 2 years ago wot i no now as i would be going 1mz and na box with longer 5th and mk3 lsd diff liter and the best option.
oh well u live and learn.
I have never heard of an S54 box being used with the 3sgte swap, but it should bolt up and is lighter.
LSD from mr-s box is compatible, and there are probably several aftermarket choices as well.
The E153 is very strong and I would think you'd be well over 500 bhp before needing to do too much to it.
They have LSD in all sw20 gen2 cars (in NZ at least, mostly imported JDM), however in the later cars (gen3, 94+) they got triple sychros at least on some gears, as earlier ones pretty much all crunch going into 2nd and 3rd on downshifts.
Driveshafts are the weakest link in the E153, I think its the CV joints that get destroyed with lots of power.
The box in an ae101 would be c-series if its a silvertop 4age, or E-series if 4agze iirc.
However, even if it is the right box, you still need to modify it to work in a mid-engine configuration as the shifters are on the wrong side (rear of the box for fwd, front of the box for mr2)
There's a guide for the reverse process that driftin_AW did, but the site doesn't work for me atm
http://www.fasterthanjesus.net/
Final drives are interchangeable with celicas, NA celica for S54 and gt4 for E153, but I think they are both longer than the MR2 equivalents. Here's some stuff about the E153 ratio choices and final drives
http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=222616&highlight=e153+solara+phoenix
if your building a mk1.5 just use a turbo box simple!
im not just building a mk1.5 though. put it this way, when it was getting a 4A-GE engine it was going to be 98% made up of genuine Formula Atlantic parts, straight from Hasselgren. it was quite a lot of money to plough in to a 230-240bhp motor though, so plans adapted. next up was a 2ZZ-GE for cost effectiveness, but it still lacks the necessary power, the car will have the cornering capacity for so much more, so id have ended up sticking a turbo on it, and then it kinda defeats the purpose and i might as well go 3S power (altho the 2ZZ is wayyy lighter, and does still have huge benefits. the fact its more modern is what puts me off, i hate messing with road car electrics, theyre so badly laid out and hard to work with when youre used to race car stuff)
so if im building a 1.5, im far more concerned about the very specific performance of each area of the car than just sticking whatever gearbox fits in there and making do with it. i want whichever box gives me the closest ratios to what i require from it, and if that box happens to be from an NA (and i like the idea of it being lighter as well, weight is of huge concern!) and i have to replace almost every part inside it for it be suitable, then thats pretty much the way il go lol
effort and complications dont bother me a great deal. if it wont fit as it is, my next question will always be "what needs doing to make it fit".
im just trying to establish the power handling of the different gearboxes, potential problems, fitment issues, and what parts are interchangeable
I have never heard of an S54 box being used with the 3sgte swap, but it should bolt up and is lighter.
LSD from mr-s box is compatible, and there are probably several aftermarket choices as well.
The E153 is very strong and I would think you'd be well over 500 bhp before needing to do too much to it.
They have LSD in all sw20 gen2 cars (in NZ at least, mostly imported JDM), however in the later cars (gen3, 94+) they got triple sychros at least on some gears, as earlier ones pretty much all crunch going into 2nd and 3rd on downshifts.
Driveshafts are the weakest link in the E153, I think its the CV joints that get destroyed with lots of power.
The box in an ae101 would be c-series if its a silvertop 4age, or E-series if 4agze iirc.
However, even if it is the right box, you still need to modify it to work in a mid-engine configuration as the shifters are on the wrong side (rear of the box for fwd, front of the box for mr2)
There's a guide for the reverse process that driftin_AW did, but the site doesn't work for me atm
http://www.fasterthanjesus.net/
Final drives are interchangeable with celicas, NA celica for S54 and gt4 for E153, but I think they are both longer than the MR2 equivalents. Here's some stuff about the E153 ratio choices and final drives
http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=222616&highlight=e153+solara+phoenix
thanks for that info. the E153 sounds like it is the strongest option then (i kinda knew that would be the case, just didnt know the specific numbers). capable of 500bhp is about 30-40% stronger than i need it to be, so that is spot on! also i beleive ive read something about ST185 hybrid driveshafts which give it more strength?! im not going to be dragging it and power delivery will be super smooth, so im not sure il suffer too badly. driveshafts are easy enough to make stronger though, if a little pricey!
the Phoenix Power gear set is awesome!! exactly what i require, there are also some other options. but for £2000 it may put a dampener on it!! then there is the PP final drive, which puts the E153 on slightly better pegging than the S54. but if the S54 is lighter and cheaper...
all that remains to be seen is whether the S54 can handle upto 350bhp. but it will be delivered super smoothly, as opposed to many road cars that are quite aggressive when theyre tuned that far, but on the other hand im an animal on gear changes, which would counteract that and then some :D
looks as though the US S54 would be the best match for what i require.
the S54 UK box would be satisfactory, it would be nicer if it had the shorter final drive from the US box though. but a UK box will be a hell of a lot easier to source. slap a mk3 diff in it and away i go!
now just the issue of driveshafts strong enough...
Is the US S54 not the one off the 5SFE?
I thought that was longer than the UK S54.
its slightly shorter final drive from all the info ive seen.
So what do you want from the box ratios then?
Mad, close ratios you'll hit the power band with quickly, but means it's over quickly too?
Or a leggy box that will make use of the tubby's top end and give you silly speed capabilities?
Or 1-4 mental and a big cruiser 5th?
none of the above. i want to shift gear at 8800rpm, and drop back in at 6500rpm. and still be able to hit 170mph at absolute top end
so essentially i want equally spaced gear ratios. the S54 actually has fairly good ratios, 1st and 2nd are a little short, 5th is a little long, and the final drive is a little long. but its not a bad match. the US version is almost perfect. its just 1st and 2nd gears that could do with being shorter.
the Phoenix Power gear set for the E153 is absolutely on the money for the ratios, used with the standard E153 final drive it would be the absolute perfect setup. but im not gonna blow £2000 on a set of gears. i would if it was a full on race car, but it isnt going to be (although if it ends up how i want it to it will be fast enough to compete in a fair few series')
robwsurf
02-02-2009, 22:16
8800rpm thats abit high! going to need alot of work on a 3sgte to do that and keep it reliable i would of thought,especially valve train
a bit high compared to what? wont need much more work than any other similar engine to reach those revs. will need less than a 4A-GE needs to rev to 10,800rpm!
robwsurf
02-02-2009, 23:20
compared to standard rev limit on 3sgte i think you ll need stiffer valve springs bucketless shims and if your wanting peak power at those revs possible a different to standard turbo too going to get expensive,
Have you had a look at the ratios that are in the E51? Wondering if they would be shorter than those in the E153, just because they were mated to less powerful engines, and used in AW's and Corollas as opposed to sw20's and gt4's.
As they are E-series as well, would final drives and gears be compatible?
Here's a whole lot of ratios:
http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=291713&highlight=e51+c52+4agze+gear+ratio
This is the one I was looking for, took ages to find, may or may not be any use:
http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=239492&highlight=acceleration+SC+20V
I would guess S54 would be strong enough if you're not launching too often (although once a race will add up) and power is coming on smoothly. As Paul has said, its handling V6's up to near 300 bhp, and with a lot of torque.
Having said that, i don't really know what kills boxes, whether its torque, simple high power or sudden jumps in power or torque.
I have always been too lazy to have a good look at all the ratios in different boxes, I just knew I'd pop in an E153 when I do a mk1.5. However, with the S54, you said you'd want to go lower on second gear without changing third, but on my car (gen1 jdm NA) I find that second and third feel a long way apart (no numerical proof, just feels that way) much larger gaps than any other change.
Personally I'd go higher second gear, maybe leave first where it is, and bring them all down a bit with shorter final drive, although for 350bhp that would be a very short box overall.
What top speed would you be aiming for and would it geared specifically for racing and just live with very high cruising revs on the road, or compromise?
On a slightly different tack, have you thought about any of the V6 motors, 1MZ would be about the same weight or less than a full 3sgte setup with intercooling etc. And if you could get new heads machined up, internals designed for high revs, could it be made into a race capable engine, does anyone know?
Or the 2gr-fe, 270 bhp standard, expensive but Paul is currently working on making it fit into a mk2, so should also be able to be shoehorned into the AW? :pray:
compared to standard rev limit on 3sgte i think you ll need stiffer valve springs bucketless shims and if your wanting peak power at those revs possible a different to standard turbo too going to get expensive,
was already planning on Carrillo forged H-beam rods, o/s forged low comp pistons, heavily worked crankshaft, bored cylinders, line bored mains and cam carriers, heavily worked cylinder head, complete aftermarket valvetrain (cams, o/s valves, underbucket followers, high rate dual valve springs, titanium hardware wherever possible, etc), dry sump, etc. as i said, its nothing more than is required to rev a 4A-GE to 10,800rpm, and i already had the parts to do that, aside from TRD cranks, i had enough parts to build 2 engines! having sold most of the parts ive raised enough cash to do it again on a different engine. i was going to spend the cash on a brand new 2ZZ-GE plus some additional tuning parts, but 3S engines are much cheaper so i can go all out on a 3S-GTE for about the same money and making 50% more power.
as for the turbo, that will have to be changed as per my plans anyway, and im going to be defying convention on my turbo setup anyway with an idea ive wanted to try out for years.
ive given it proper consideration, im not just some kid who thinks revving to 9000rpm is as simple as having a chip fitted to override the rev limiter and winding the turbo boost up!
Have you had a look at the ratios that are in the E51? Wondering if they would be shorter than those in the E153, just because they were mated to less powerful engines, and used in AW's and Corollas as opposed to sw20's and gt4's.
As they are E-series as well, would final drives and gears be compatible?
Here's a whole lot of ratios:
http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=291713&highlight=e51+c52+4agze+gear+ratio
This is the one I was looking for, took ages to find, may or may not be any use:
http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=239492&highlight=acceleration+SC+20V
I would guess S54 would be strong enough if you're not launching too often (although once a race will add up) and power is coming on smoothly. As Paul has said, its handling V6's up to near 300 bhp, and with a lot of torque.
Having said that, i don't really know what kills boxes, whether its torque, simple high power or sudden jumps in power or torque.
E51 or E58 gearbox could work ok, not as well as the S54 from my calculations. plus im sure there would be more hassle in making one of those fit, or swapping gear clusters into a E153 casing, if thats even possible. i think of all the options, the S54 is the best out of the box. it is only really 1st to 2nd gear where it could be majorly improved
so far as V6 engines go, ive given it consideration. the 3VZ-FE is too heavy, but is the simple swap. the 1MZ-FE is lighter but is a more complex swap. if i have one specific weakness in the area of an engine swap it is with the electronics, so id rather play to my strengths and go with a simple option unless a more complex one offers a huge benefit. and i just dont see the benefit from the V6 over the 3S-GTE. its got less power, lower down the rev range, but a load of torque. but for what i want to use it for, low end torque is of less importance, i want outright peak horsepower. another major factor is displacement - the car isnt being built as a race car, im not building to a set of regulations, but i am considering the regulations for many different race series during the build, and am building the car so that if in future i want to race it, the option is left open. having a 3 litre car is going to put me in a ridiculous category under displacement classifications, up against cars that would be much faster. keeping displacement at 2 litres is beneficial in that regard, the fastest cars in the same class would be the likes of Evo's and Impreza's and il eat those for breakfast (even if theyve got 600bhp). 98% of 4WD owners cant drive 4WD how its supposed to be driven, and the 2% who can are still in cars that dont like cornering.
So what are you going to do to the S54 to give 170 top?
Custom final drive? Extended 5th?
Or is the 9000rpm rev limit putting you up there?
9000rpm rev limit pretty much does the job! no idea if it will actually be able to hit 170 or not. calculations suggest it should just about be able to, but it will probably take forever to get there. realistically it wont likely see more than 140-145mph on any circuit in the UK
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