View Full Version : Build # 2, the 3vz
you can call us the AA :booz:. right then its been a long time coming for alans motor, im just helping out with the build it's his car and engine :thumbsup:. me an alan today started our second swap with great anticipation. I think it takes alot of motivation second time round lol , but actually it wasnt that bad at-all ripping another engine out it was alot of fun and better than having your ear chewed off by the missus at home. We started at 1pm today and finished around 6.30, it would have been a 4 hour job but some twat :whistle: said instead of undoing the driveshaft cap head bolts said we'll just cut through the driveshafts with a 9" grinder. Well the cutting was easy, but if you leave a stub shaft hanging out of the gearbox then you cant clear the engine past the side members, so we had to drop it back down and take one side driveshaft off, all good fun working through the problems, we had the pleasure of doing it in a workshop away from today's nasty weather and had the use of a power hoist. once engine was outthe box was split off, job done. Alans mk1 is a D reg sherwood toning, bodyworks pretty good for its age (thank god). a little cosmetic needed but nothing to worry about arches are fantastic. and its fully loaded with new goodies allready which alan spent alot of time building before hand if you remeber i.e; coil overs, tokico shocks, fully poly bushed, cusco top mounts, WMS 300 billet front brakes kit, braided lines, borbets. Lined up for the engine we got a toda lightweight cro-moly fly and 6 puck clutch type thing with uprated pressure plate, a 2.0 n/a box apparently with lsd , 5zigen zorst. we are aiming for a standard build now just changing the gaskets cleaning it up bolting a few bits on and getting it going, then maybe later once its taxed and tested and good for fun we will bolt a turbo kit on to it. hes good this alan fella, give him a cup of tea and sausage roll and he'll take an engine out for ya in a jiffy :hidesbehi . heres to brutal :beer: , long may it live , and heres to our second swap. http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/47.jpg http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/48.jpg http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/49.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/?action=view¤t=camryout3.flv) http://forums.twobrutal.com/http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/47.jpg http://forums.twobrutal.com/http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/47.jpg
Marksman
04-10-2008, 21:47
Brilliant :thumbsup:
Not been the same without you lads.
Oh, re. the video, what is it that Al does best?
Owen.
Gary Symons
04-10-2008, 22:24
About bloody time lol :thumbsup:. I remember talking about this swap last christmas.
working on cars! he aint a bad chef either i guess lol , currently doing unsociable amounts of work but im prizing him back.
he'll be about soon to say i did fu*k all :D , as per.
Marksman
04-10-2008, 22:45
Tell 'im you're not there for what you do, you're there for what you know. It seems to work for the engineers in my place :hand:
Owen.
excellent guys.
Looking forward to this one. I can definatly see it being one of the best 1.6's ever.
Ditto what Paff said, looking forward to this one, second time round for both chaps :thumbsup:
Paul Woods
05-10-2008, 09:03
about bloody time! :) the deadly duo back in action....god help us.
loadswine
05-10-2008, 11:57
i saw Al's Sherwood Mk1 some time ago when he let me have a go in his original 1.6, ( the very car that persuaded me to have mine done).
Glad to see its going to have the engine it deserves. Good luck with it all guys.
very nice one..so glad to see this starting you two lazy showers..!!
if you need anything let me know..only a couple of hours away..
lodgeman
05-10-2008, 14:54
yes the deadly duo are back in action!!!:gay: mind you if adam had undone all the mounting bolts then we would have done it a lot quicker!:hand: :rofl: it was actually quite refereshing to get my hands dirty again- not! good facilities though , we even had toilets and hot water!!! cheers mate:thumbsup: now all we need is the flywheel modified and some gaskets and we will be flying.
Great fun trying to hoist the engine out at 60* when u don't cut enough shaft off lol
Grand to see you lads back where you belong, and with another Mk1.6! Brilliant.
What do you think of the toda flywheel? Look meaty enough? Is it the one that looks like an auto flywheel?
Hey Al you gonna do engine mods so it will rev to 9000 safely:hidesbehi:
Marksman
05-10-2008, 20:16
Nah, I think he'll stick to his tried and tested 5 cylinder model :hidesbehi
Owen.
OohMatron
06-10-2008, 09:05
The AA Back in action :thumbsup:
Good to see Alan get his hands grubby again and Adam doing the filming.!
Good to see Alan get his hands grubby again and Adam doing the filming.!
Could be a dangerous comment, if taken out of context!
OohMatron
06-10-2008, 09:12
Could be a dangerous comment, if taken out of context!
I'd expect no less in here :rolleyes:
...or from me!
Talk about typecast!
OohMatron
06-10-2008, 09:22
...or from me!
Talk about typecast!
You're your own worst enemy scouser :doh:
Great fun trying to hoist the engine out at 60* when u don't cut enough shaft off lol
Grand to see you lads back where you belong, and with another Mk1.6! Brilliant.
What do you think of the toda flywheel? Look meaty enough? Is it the one that looks like an auto flywheel?
yes it's one of those distinctive holey numbers . well not much happened this week, my back was fubarred after that short energetic burst last week, I have not heard from alan either so I expect he he was out cold the old lightweight ;).
heres some pics of the fly and clutch, the helix clutch has only 1mm meat from the rivets so i think a re-line will be in order. The pressure plate I couldnt tell if it was any special number looks like any other to me. The flywheel i re-dressed well over a year ago, i think it came off a 2.0 litre n/a. Alan was going to use it for the first celica Beams transplant into mk1 but some thing or other fell through at that time.
I will knock the fly about a bit and make it fit the camry crank boss :thumbsup:,
anyone know a good re-lining company for the clutch?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/170.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/171.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/172.jpg
i asked helix what they reckoned about their clutch, they said:
These drive plates are 7.7mm thick when new. We advise that you have it repadded once they get to about 6.6mm thick.
A repad of a 4 paddle plate costs £44.98 + VAT. Carriage is £8.50 + VAT (Next day delivery service with City Link). We usually complete the work within one or two days of receipt of the plate.
Helix Autosport Ltd
so i measured it and its 7.4mm across the thickness, so great, barely used!, no need for getting it re-lined yet. al did say it was only used for a couple of races or summat.
today saw some keen stripping. It seems, the parts of the camry engine fall off like lamb off the bone, i'm sure it will be a darn sight harder putting the pieces back like one of those boxed 3d jigsaws. I've left the heads on for now until that is the old boy can get down and instruct me further.
I'm not sure what were doing with this yet but things are starting to clank and whirl :) . i need to ask some questions about stuff, whats do the vac switches in my hand do? do we need them?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/189.jpg
and what do the switches inside here do? and what is the goldy coloured cog attatched to the cam shaft end bottom right of the pic, looking like some kind of ign pick up device off the cam end?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/190.jpg
and finally for now, why are there so many darned connections on the fuel rails?.. can i get rid of it all, and just have one supply and one return, join the rails with braided hose, and have an adjustable fpr on the return?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/191.jpg
Marksman
19-10-2008, 22:20
I think the two "inside" ones are a pair of knock sensors.
Owen.
do they remain the same?, do we use them...
Marksman
19-10-2008, 22:28
Yup, just leave the little buggers alone. Bloody engineers always wanting to take everything apart and fiddle with what's left :old:
Owen.
Aye, leave the knock sensors alone, bottom right cog thing is part of the internal dizzy assemby i think.
as for the fuel rails am sure that's how 3VZ-FE has done his.
Marksman
19-10-2008, 23:29
Yup, the rpm signal is taken from the dizzy and fed to the ecu from there on the 3VZ. We had a broken wire in the plug there that prevented Paff's V6 from starting the night before JAE...
Owen.
Oh and those 2 little blue connectors....
ignore them. or at least I did with no issues.
And listen to those 2 idiots posts above, the dizzy is a pita, or at least it is after 48 hours straight before a with a broken wire hidden in a connector :)
Paul Woods
20-10-2008, 06:46
Ads you can ditch the stock FPR from the rail and just plumb your own adjustable one onto the same place
Oh and those 2 little blue connectors....
ignore them. or at least I did with no issues.
And listen to those 2 idiots posts above, the dizzy is a pita, or at least it is after 48 hours straight before a with a broken wire hidden in a connector :)
you mean these two paff...
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/192.jpg
paul, if one side is the oem reg is that the return side marked, im not familiar with 3vz!, what is the other thing and why does it have a feed sticking out!? its something controlled by a vac diaphragm..? too many questions, not enough time... :freak3:
heres a better shot, ah another thing what was that blue connection between two sides of inlet plenum, oil feed? marked blue.
i reckn the two pinks are in and out 1 in 2 out? still have no idea what the vac switch feed or postitive pressure feed is on the left side, green.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/193.jpg
Marksman
21-10-2008, 00:05
Paff says "yup".
O.S.
Paul Woods
21-10-2008, 06:38
then paff needs a swift kick in the balls! lol
adam the fuel feed is on the right,it enters the right rail via the fitting marked as "2" on your diagram,thats a resonator type thing (never fully understood its purpose).The regulator is on the left and the fuel returns to the tank from this.The vac feed going from this to the blue vsv controls fuel pressure on/off idle.
The pipes marked in blue are not oil feeds,they are called "air assist" pipes,basically each fuel injector nozzle is fed by air through channels in the lower plenum,these terminate at those two pipes and get fed from the throttle body/iscv area.The purpose of air assist is better atomisation of fuel at the injector.
Hope that helps mate.
helps heaps thanks, cheers lads. so if thats the fuel pump pressure control? then if removed it will run full pressure at idle, rich? stinky?.
whats the red switch above it then, any 3vz oem service manuals aboot? :)
wow air assist thats a neat trick!, does that take a feed from the throttle body then just some slightly positive pressure, is it metered after afm?
Hi Adam.
Sent ya an email with the 3vz manual on it, and a couple of other files :)
Let me know if it doesn't make it, it is a fairly large attachment size so I don't know if it'll go through happily.
Sorry to just jump in. But im pretty sure the one on the side with no vac. attachment is the fuel pulse damper. The one on the end with the vac attachment is the regulator. The damper is there to smooth out the pulsation from the fuel pump to keep the fuel injection events pretty consistant.
-J
Paul Woods
23-10-2008, 07:28
If the FPR is removed it wont run at all ads,there will be no pressure in the rails.
The red/brown vsv is for your ACIS control. The v6 version of TVIS.
Yep the air assist is fed from the ISCV and is metered.
Sorry to just jump in. But im pretty sure the one on the side with no vac. attachment is the fuel pulse damper. The one on the end with the vac attachment is the regulator. The damper is there to smooth out the pulsation from the fuel pump to keep the fuel injection events pretty consistant.
-J
you jump in any time pal we are a club here everythings open for objective discussion for all. yep pretty much what paul iterated :thumbsup: . good to hear other opinions are the same, so the UFO on the rail is a pulse damper and or baffle type thing understand completely..
cheers paff :thumbsup: i got that file great just finding the time to open it and read it, is it me or are minutes getting smaller every day lately.
paul i meant the VSV (which i denoted fuel pump pressure control) lol not the Fpr. i meant if the vsv which regulates the fuel pressure at idle, is removed will it be at full pressure at idle then and does it run rich or stinky in the cabin?
Paul Woods
23-10-2008, 19:03
ah i get you now ads,sorry mate,no it will still fuel fine because its in closed loop running off the lambda sensors,so the injectors would be throttled back by the ecu to maintain lambda 1 at idle regardless of fuel pressure.
I believe the vsv is there to stop fuel pump wear but im not 100% sure to be honest.
can i be cheeky then and get one last question in :liar: ...
i understand the location of the fuel pump vsv there, i dont understand the location of the IACV vsv plumbed straight onto the fuel line. and boy oh boy wht the hell is that thing the IACV! just looking at the guide and it appears its a multifunctional device bolted onto the end of the inlet plenum!. termination point for.. cold start injector.. power steering vac feed, brake booster vac feed, fair enough.. but why the IACV vsv connection, so when its idling.. it allows a drip feed of air into the manifold right to keep it ticking over.. why isnt that device on the throttle body like on the 3sgte?
aha spotted it!! , on PG EG-214 in the manual.. i can see the butterfly on the other side of the IACV , at what point does it open and allow full flow? when theres a slightly positive pressure in the manifold it opens or closes?
I was getting it confused with the ISCV ! on the 3s which is on the throttle bod. its an IAC not an ISC.. bloody valves..
It's controlled by one of the wee dufferyswaffs on the front of the fannymould.
Which you wanna bypass.
hey olber, do you mean the IACV vsv, and why do i want to bypass it?
Check out the free power mods thread, explains it better in there but basically you'll open your ACIS flap from the word go rather than half way through the rev range.
lads i think i got the correct gear to do the fifth gear mod, this it?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/10/217.jpg
Gary Symons
25-10-2008, 16:26
Looks like the right one to me :thumbsup: lol
questions.. whos used what sized pipe on the exhaust fabrication? i was thinking of going 3" stainless + flexi to the backbox, sound okay? the backbox is a 5zigen with 4" single exit, not sure what the intake side is, i guess i hope its 3" ! :) or perhaps two 2.5" into a single 3" for the backbox
im looking forward to the torque this engine provides and all the sublte mods from standard we have to do which help like chucking out the Y pipe crap...
Today was the first half day of taking the old 4age out.
It's getting colder now, i didnt care much as I had some wind cover from the hedges, and wrapped up well, luckily the rain held off. Unfortunately she was at work so there was no tea to hand all morning. I've planned the pull over two days. I am on a wind down holiday for a few days and can afford myself the luxury of doing it at a sombre pace lol , the cat was keen too.
I started off by just taking the TPS off the throttle body as you know that usually gets stuck on the way down, and ended up taking the whole inlet manifold off, what the hell, there's only me so i'll make life easy for tommorow :mrgreen: . the hub nuts are cracked, driveshaft nuts off, fluids drained, everything else cropped off or strippedn back, it leaves only for jacking up removing the exhaust, then upping the engine, loosing the D shafts and engine mount pins, and she's gone on the way down.
Play was finished off with some eagerly anticipated tucker :thumbsup: , what better way to spend a day off.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/11/6.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/11/7.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/11/8.jpg
I see you got that twat, Jamie Oliver's pass it on recipe then lol
Good strippage, I took my time when dropping the 3s out of mine. Sitting at home and thought, right lets get cracking with the engine. I thought I go out and do a little bit, next thing I was lifting the car to pull the thing out from underneath. I think its one of those things, if you plan to do a lot, not much gets done.
Jiff Lemon
04-11-2008, 16:50
Loving the 5th gear mod Adam, the V6 certainly has the torque to pull it off!
enjoying this thread - Almost makes me want to start doing stuff to mine - then I look around at my building site house, the cold weather outside and realise I've got more than enough projects for now! But thanks for waving a TB spanner, good to see us staying a grass roots level!
i'm enjoying the work more lol . As has' said when you plan to do tons you get little done and bolts usually start shearing like shelling peas. jamie oliver will have to work hard to beat soul food like that man.
Today saw the second half of the pull going well, i had some help from a relative for a few hours cheers louis.
as planned I jacked the car up a bit (about 28 inches lol from rear valence) I just wanted it to slip out hassle free. I supported it with a 6 x 4 wood beam across under the front bulk head / + axle stands/chock blocks as you do.
dropped the exhaust mounts, unscrewed the hub nuts, removed the driveshafts & cv's, tied the caps off, drained off the oil cooler (10 points for remembering that and the clutch line :) ). I then removed the two front mount bolts, the left mount pin, then the right 3 mount nuts, the rear mount, and lowered the jack slowly..... i was almost in disbelief like something should have snagged up or sheared, but it didnt, it just fell out of the car like a greased baby out of jenna james.
I had prepared for the pull by supporting the jack and axle stands with various parts of an old pc bench , 1/2" chipboard but it did the trick fine, and once down it slid out the back real easy.
job done, kettle on :thumbsup:. tea and the remainder of the hot dogs was priority. I'm not sure paul would employ me, but i cant believe how simple it was to spread the pull over two days and prepare with silly things like slippery pc benches lol .
next job I guess is to apply the FBH to the rear wall, looking forward to that, wonder how much it has to sit back?.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/11/21.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/11/22.jpg
FBH?
No, it's cutting and welding time if you're using a jig squire?
Or you going to try and cram it in like the 1MZ we've just done?
Great work Adam, does take me back a bit. I bet you're glad there's no body work this time.
Nice one ad its coming along well
Marksman
04-11-2008, 22:54
FBH?
No, it's cutting and welding time if you're using a jig squire?
Or you going to try and cram it in like the 1MZ we've just done?
Just for reference this is how far we moved Paff's.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2007/06/30.jpg
Hope that helps,
Owen.
Jiff Lemon
04-11-2008, 22:54
go access panel lads, tis the way!
Need to change those plugs? No need to remove the inlet, just pop em out through the access panel!
Stirling work though matey - where was the man himself? On hot dog duty? lol
No, it's cutting and welding time if you're using a jig squire?
Or you going to try and cram it in like the 1MZ we've just done?[/quote]
i dont mind the labour of making mounts for the sakes of £50 in the queens postal wages. Assuming we may have one of Tonys finest mounts supplied, does the jig work with that?
how does it line the driveshafts up horizontally when sitting on its own weight..? and how are they angled from the top down?
garbe this ones in better shape panel wise for an 85 than most, damn glad of that, slightly!
nice work there on the infill panels O, any chance of a quick approximate rule?
access panels is for sure the way, its got be worth it hasnt it. id have oneon the front if i could aswell. al's off up in scotland at moment on a short break, hopefully back to continue woth some brutal slavery on the engine, we have that yet to tidy up..
Paul Woods
05-11-2008, 06:27
"it just fell out of the car like a greased baby out of jenna james. "
we have a new TB quote of the month lol
great to see this swap unfolding,truely brutal.
TheGasMan
05-11-2008, 13:17
Exciting Adam, seeing your 1.5 was pretty much what convinced me to get mine done so good luck to ya bud :)
Can I just say you look like a thinner version of Chris Moyles? Just thought id put that out there..
as long as i dont like a thinner version of johnny or paul i'm happy :thumbsup:
I think that's Lodge, not Adam lol
Adam's the one that looks like Bear Grylls in need of a good feed.
TheGasMan
05-11-2008, 22:45
Adam's the one that looks like Bear Grylls in need of a good feed.
Exactly the opposite then? lol
Should be awesome when its done, plenty of pictures please :)
gents anyone know which is a good fuel pump for a v6, and what driveshafts and outer cv's am i going to need to run a 2.0 N/A box?
Limeymk1
12-06-2009, 18:43
I'm using a Mk2 turbo pump.
I believe the N/A driveshafts are plug and play on the Mk1
cheers chris, when wired as per manual (!) does it run full pressure, and does it stink ? :) the tubby swap uses a direct feed from the cor so full pressure was always on depending on the voltage of course.
anyone else using an N/A box into mk1 hubs?
today saw some more work done on the car, its been since october or so / nice t break :mrgreen: , i should have the mounts done inside of three weeks, next job is to hack off the old engine mounts.
today i removed the fuelk tank (emptied 6 litres of fuel into my pocket :cool: ) and put a rev3 turbo pump in place of the mk1a pump. cheers gary. i'll leave the tank out while im welding in the bay, do the bay work and pop it baack in after.
there is a difference between MK1a fuel pump carriers, and a MK1b carrier.. i found the mk1 a carrier only had one supply hard pipe, and one return hard pipe (entering into the top of the carrier mount). The Mk1b has three small hard pipes on the carrier, 1 for supply obviously, one for return just like the mk1a, and then there is another pipe which enters the top of the bracket, but terminates there, i.e; its basically a pipe cut short so under neath the carrier mount there is no continuation of the pipe just a hole.. so.. is that 3rd pipe for a breather? and which do i now use for the v6!?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/07/36.jpg
Gary Symons
05-07-2009, 19:09
Heres a pic from my car before the tank got removed, any help:
http://www.mr2mk1turbo.co.uk/photos/8-4.jpg
i'll reference that pic with one of bulkhead.
heres a pic of my old mk1b carrier, you can see the extra stumpy pipe / pink arrow. must be some kind of improvement over the 1a. I wish i could remember!
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/07/37.jpg
well, i started cutting out the mounts today in readiness for some welding and the grinder gave up, i'll finish up tommorow with the new posh grinder :0) managers special / screwfix £16 / used once 'out the back' still gauranteed. jubbly deal.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/08/97.jpg
snowtigger
10-08-2009, 19:43
hitachi make great grinders have had two of them 240v transformer jobbies last for ever.
zinc'd etc.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/08/104.jpg
Like your dedication there Adam, smoother than a baby's shit trap that is. :thumbsup:
snowtigger
11-08-2009, 21:57
are we doing stealth engine setups i could have sworn there was an engine in there.
Marksman
11-08-2009, 22:15
Proper job, :thumbsup:
Seems like a lifetime ago that Alan (ironically) introduced me to those little green cans. Mighty good stuff though!
Keep up the good work!
Owen.
are we doing stealth engine setups i could have sworn there was an engine in there.
there is.. its a 4age
cheers lads, its been a while and it's a lot of fun, save for the burnt arms and inhilation of bay sealent.
et voila
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/08/119.jpg (http://forums.twobrutal.com/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/mountsoff3.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)
Gary Symons
12-08-2009, 22:37
quick work there :thumbsup:
Any chance of have the car running before 11th sept? :shades:
i dont think so gaz, i have a fair bit of work yet, more like january i'd imagine. next step rear bulkhead adjustment, then engine rebuild & fit / front and rear mounts/ exhaust fab / plumbing / wire.
What u thinking for the rear firewall Adam?
I'm in 2 minds whether i'd go for a fully rebuilt wall with a letterbox or a full panel like Nik Wills if i did it for myself again.
im thinking, i'll chop out a large section, build two perpendicular side walls from thin plate and put a straight section inbetween like i did on the 1.5, a flat, bolted, access panel. the only trouble is mate i have no idea how far back to move the wall, im seeking a dimension if anyone has.. im looking for the boot width after this mod.. thats all i need.. someone to say .. my boot is 10 inches wide! and im go with a grinder.
I was also thinking, to chop out another cars rear wall, then cut my rear wall, push the two seperate parts back at an angle, and use a joining piece to fill up the gap if you see what i mean, what did you do on black bob?
Jiff Lemon
13-08-2009, 22:16
Now that sounds a familiar idea Adam ;)
I'll get the tape measure out tomorrow if you want?
what did you do on black bob?
I didn't lol Andy did it for me when he did the original conversion.
Check out Nik Will's swap, that's turned out the best so far i think.
If you cut out the central part, then cut along the bottom of the panel on each side and swing them back as if they're pivoting on the vertical you just have to panel in the lower section, put 2 angle struts in and then recreate the top with the water gulley in.
99% Sure i've got a template under me bench, i'll measure up and let you know 2moro mate. :thumbsup:
Now that sounds a familiar idea Adam ;)
I'll get the tape measure out tomorrow if you want?
yes please jeff , much appreciated :thumbsup:
olber, id like that too! all info is great. measure twice/cut once
Righto, dug out the template and this should help a bit
hopefully.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/08/162.jpg
I forgot to measure the distance between the legs but IIRC the access panel was pretty much square so just measure the height of the gap and then you'll have the distance between the legs obviously.
There's also 2 marks at the top of that which line up with the top mount studs, i'll measure the distance from the studs to the legs, that should give you all you need chief.
hey olber, thanks alot man, what i will need is an overall length of that piece of cardboard, i'll make a scaled cad and blow it up for measurments, it will be accurate enough for this.
cheers.. so from one extreme end to the other is all i need . i wonder if jeff makes his about 28cm aswell.. ?
Would it be better if i marked the points where it touches the top mount studs? Then you could blow it up from there and it be right?
Getting the access panel in the right position is important and u gotta make sure there's room for the ISCV on the left too.
Check the 1st page in Nik's project, should help no end with the left to right position of the access panel : http://forums.twobrutal.com/showthread.php?t=13817
Jiff Lemon
16-08-2009, 21:03
Sorry for the late response adam - Having some usual chaos here!
You'll see the firewall construction here (http://forums.twobrutal.com/showpost.php?p=102813&postcount=210). Just measured and the depth into the boot is 12cm.
Would it be better if i marked the points where it touches the top mount studs? Then you could blow it up from there and it be right?
yup id need the points where the top mount studs touch, you'd also have to tell me which top mount studs it were' ! .
cheers jeff, i'll ref that 12cm and ollie's template and throw a knife between the two.
nice to see the car its been a while!
It's the furthest back studs but i'll measure up them 2moro and mark them for ya chief.
very kind of you olber, i appreciate the help, this time around i have to do the work in the bay blind, the engine is away in another town until its ready to fit then i'll take the car and drop it in away from home.
i spoke to al yesterday , i know im lucky aint i :gay:, and we are moving the engine into the garage on the 27th which is good news, we wil then both go down and do a little bit here and there to strip and clean it, so.. cool, 2 hands on deck, ............and my 2 will be holding the tv remote :)
any sign of that measurement ollie?
Doh! Aye, here ya go. Retook the picture as square as i could and the 2 bolts are the rear most suspension top mount studs. Didn't have a tape measure but u can measure ur own and scale it up.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/08/203.jpg
The right hand leg should be just about inline with the timing belt cover too if i remember rightly.
all well and good for the models with a factory fitted engine :)
Do you mean "looks like" or am i missing something?
the bays empty right now sire' but i will take your word for it :)
Dohhhh!
Silly fucker i am.
I mean when it's welded, all seam sealed up, primed and painted AND you've fitted the engine you know you've done it right if the right leg is in line with the timing belt cover.
Yes i know, back to the drawing board on that one.
the engine is now back at the garage, time to freshen it up with some belts and bearings etc. we are going for,
a stat,
cam belt kit
top gasket set
Water pump
big ends
plugs and leads, maybe a cap.
thats about it!.
cheep and cheerful this time, but a whole bag of fun to drive i hope.
Mind and check the water pump is the right design now!
thanks for the reminder olber
I'll be doing the same on Black Bob the week after next if the HG test shows a blow.
What u doing for head bolts, standard new ones or ARP jobbies?
erm.. not sure yet, maybe just OEM new if the price is o.k
£21 from an ebay seller am pretty sure.
well its been a good 5 or 6 weeks again since anything was done, not having to work against the clock as summer has passed, so the pressure is off, great!, i'm enjoying doing a bit as and when i can.
Today i had some time to make that cut onto the rear wall which was referenced with most of the other v6's before now.
what i will now do over the coming week or two is first model with cardboard until i have panelling that resembles Jb's , and i will then fold and slit in the edge of each panel so it lips over the existing metal work,e asy to construct, easy to weld in after.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/10/96.jpg
all this is making me want to do another swap.
Paul Woods
17-10-2009, 09:12
Ads that remaining bit of boot wall needs to angle back to avoid the ISCV on the plenum mate, like this....
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/10/98.jpg
i'll give you that shot from another angle , if you would be so kind to confirm that paul, i need cut another bit. its a 1a. i was reproducing Jb's , his mounts may be different.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/10/108.jpg
http://forums.twobrutal.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=245&d=1151866608
Paul Woods
18-10-2009, 10:31
Yes JB's engine was self hung, so not using the jig that you have used, i am pretty sure JB's engine is sitting much further forward than mine do.... this is because i like to get the engine away from the gearchange cables.
You will need to angle the left side of the boot wall back a little to clear the ISCV mate.
loud and clear , i'll use the adjusting tool.
ok , winter has passed, nearly, well it snowed today again. but i have had enough of the PS2 and d.i.y. so i went a brought a tin of hammerite. just to douse the petrol tank in, which i might add has been sat outside over the winter under a board, it is ok no rust spots or anything, but a precautionery coat i think on a 25 year old B reg petrol tank will go far in a few years. I must say the Brush on stuff is much thicker than the spray tins and i'm quite happy to give it a liberal coat.
I have also ordered some parts for re-newing the engine, big ends, mains, thrusts, cam belt kit, water pump (hope the higher flow type arrives), half gasket kit and head bolts. We allready have a fairly new 6 puk clutch waiting to go on. We are not going to hone the bores (says he!) i am hoping the rings are allright, i might get a set of rings yet, will see if i can resist. I think inside of 3 months should see the engine fitted. garys old turbo fuel pump is fitted inside aswell (she lives on!)
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/02/99.jpg
tripod23
14-02-2010, 17:10
loud and clear , i'll use the adjusting tool.
ha ha - awesome
The parts have come in for the engine and everything looks in good shape, we have the water pump with the increased flow so thats a stroke of luck.
Today we stripped the head down and took a load of parts down to the jet wash and cleaned all the grime off the block and heads and covers getting ready for some paint.
we used a nice valve spring compressor, made the job easy. the hardest part was getting the exhaust valve stem seals out, they are much harder to get, i think the seal design is different from the inlet side, and with result its harder to remove them. The inlet side just pop off, clamp around the stem seal with some regular pliers and pull up. The exhaust side,... is the same procedure, but a lot harder and more force is needed. SO.. i took some old pliers, ground a little lip in the jaws, and then re-tried removing them. With a little bit of wiggling and pulling, and clamping firmer with your hands, put a boot on the head and yank!.. they will come out. Mind not to damage the bore that the shim buckets sit on. if so, take some meat off your pliers with a grinder and smooth them off so they have less chance of damaging the bores. easy really with a little caution.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/02/182.jpg
The exhaust valve seats on the head, they look o.k at first inspection no cracks or anything, but there is some pitting on the middle lands, as is usual with exhaust valve seats, the inlets are fine and again as per inlets trends.. untouched because of the the constant influx of cool air that side of the chamber, naturally.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/02/183.jpg
If we can find a good deal close by , we will get just the exhaust valve seats re-ground, and re-lap them in ourselves. I will also re-grind the valve stems myself,
the inlet side is fine, just a re-lap with the old sucker and paste .
alan (old timer) cleaning the head...
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/02/184.jpg
washing off the V6 block..
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/02/185.jpg
this weekend i got time to size up the rear bulk head (whats needed in material). in a week or so we will be finishing up welding there, in some way trying to retain the lip position above it for the seal to fix to and to run around as before so the boot is sealed off. I will try and make an extra bolt in piece just to hold an extra seal, aswell as a bolt in access panel.
We are going to construct it from some simple angle and sheet, and then 4mm alluminium for the access plate, or closest size to , across the rear.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/84.jpg
woo-hoooooo :mrgreen: , holiday time, i have been waiting for this week off slavery so i could do some more. Today i started late but had enough time to get the left strut done in the trunk. i also pieced in the bit at the bottom which is not shown. i thought i would just slot, and peen over the plate so it follows the profile easier. The best idea is to have it all sealed, so when any water comes down that back panel , i.e; rain through the lid it will just run right off into the bay, you'll see once its done. Plenty more time this week to get the bay welding finished, i have also to re-inforce the front engine mounting point with some plate. Not very pretty but its seamed in and darned strong !. If you look left of the plate you'll see loads of spot welds, behind them is some 25 x 3 angle which i used for the upright.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/103.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/104.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/105.jpg
today saw the right strut bieng constructed. angle again, plus a piece across the top to strengthen it. And then angle between the two struts. I started piecing in the bottom, this is the incline which will dispense any water straight down , and out the bay. I have to finish with one piece on the incline, brace between the struts at the bottom with a 25 x 5 x 730mm flat bar and then i am on to strengthening the front mounting point on the chasis with some 4-5mm thick plate. my pigeon sh*t seams wont be vsible under some seam sealer ;-) i have a feeling i am going to use a 2nd welded flat bar across the gap up top. there will be a solid cover plate bolted over the void in the final assebly so it will have bags of strength.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/106.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/107.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/108.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/109.jpg
That's some fab fabbing Adam.
You can get a strip of metal from BnQ that when placed on your angle will 99% replicate the standard top edge of the firewall. Get that in and it looks brammer.
That's what we used on Nik's Mk1.6 and it looked pretty factory i reckon.
cheers olber, i will source that at big and quicks at next visit, suprising how much useful strip steel & angle they have for a commercial store.
The angle there now will not be the edge for the lip seal although, i'm going to make a piece that sits up the front in the origonal position, from some thin 10x10x 2 angle sitting upright, depcited green here;
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/116.jpg
under that thin angle i will reinforce it with some normal flat bar depicted purple, then i will make two small fixing ears and weld them in, depcited red. (or i could make it bolt in)
perhaps you could tell me, is there a need, if i made that seal bar back to origonal position.. to remove it later? does it get in the way of anything?
otherwise i'll just put the seal strip in and leave it there welded for good, remember , the only reason i removed it is because i cut the rear bulkhead out for access and room! and had to knock back the bulk head on the left... for clearence of the tps i think.
either way, i am going to put a fitted piece of insulating foam etc above the purple area up to both angles so it seals my boot in.
Not too sure but i fear the inlet fannymould might hit your green strip there.
another good idea to do while the petrol tank & engine is out is to cut this water pipe and use a rubber elbow to turn it approximately 180 degrees. cut it just before the bend.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/118.jpg
yesterday i managed to get the other pieces in for the rear bulkhead, looks as so:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/119.jpg
when reinforcing the front mount point under the front crossmember i used a small square of mild steel plate which was left over from making the engine mounts.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/120.jpg
it is tricky welding upside down, so make sure it penetrates well, the key here is to clean the area well with a flap disc, grind it back clean well past the area of welding + 25mm. you will need to flatten a little the existing plate 'LIP' that is allready there with a grinder, not much, just enough to enable the mount to sit flat before you torque it up, see above pic, grind cautiously. use the mount bolts to hold it place while welding.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/121.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/122.jpg
it does not matter if it does not look like an oil painting, remember giant haystacks?, 6' foot 11" and 45 stone.
i am all constructed now in the bay, left and right mounts / reinforcing plate / access panel / YEAH !!, i put the petrol tank back in. time to grow some skin back. After a coat of paint we will be ready to pull the engine up in, that is when its finished bieng rebuilt.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/123.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/03/124.jpg
What colour you doing the engine bay chief? Sherwood green or the grey, or black?
hey olber, for the engine bay i go in armed and ready with some lovely..thickotropic, black, hammerite. in the half litre tin flavour. I used the spray type before, it's useful.. but.. the tin gives a thicker more shellac coating, i prefer a thick hard shellac type coat in the bay, it cleans easy.
i may also do the boot over in black ! wait a minute.. i have two tins of smooth 'vomit' yellow left over :) ... but i cant bring myself to use it. I might even have some helios blue basecoat about.. again, not right!
Black would look good i reckon.
So anything extra going in with this 3VZ or just a good, solid engine?
well, we want to keep it standard, if we achieved a good standard build working reliably we would be happy, that is enough work as it is!.
the V6's are under rated in my opinion, i think the torque would keep anyone happy given a trial.
Keep up the good work adam!
yo si, cheers, it keeps me in check / and al. i have a lot of other things i want to build in life, this is o.k for this year. it would be good to meet up another time, make sure you get round to one of the meets in the future.
i have made a little more progress , at present i am rebuilding the engine. I have managed so far to re-cut the valve seats, re-grind the valve stem seats, skim the heads/ build them back, shim them, and get the block stripped and ready for a quick build. just waiting on parts and it will be back together.
valve seats
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/75.jpg
good for cokey chambers
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/76.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/77.jpg
quick skim
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/78.jpg
shims after regrinding
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/79.jpg
assembled, damn those 24valves!.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/80.jpg
whimper...
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/81.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/82.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/83.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/84.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/85.jpg
Paul Woods
11-04-2010, 09:42
Nice whore boning ads!
just a small update, still lots of prep work in the smaller stuff; alluminium 3mm panel / bay. see how much room is made for the manifold and gubbins by moving the rear wall back, at least 4 inches. you loose a bit of boot space but its nothing drastic, it gives room to move the engine further back which is for making sure the axles are in line. still room for a cooler box / bag, tent / beers in the rear. yes i need to give the innner panel a lick of spray, i brushed the paint over again after the cats paws found the panel, so the finish went to pot, should have left the cats paws prints but you do these things!.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/152.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/153.jpg
down to the labour of rebuilding now, cleaning ring grooves etc. unless you have a piston ring groove cleaner, an old ring will do, just break it, grind some off the edge off so that there is no twist in the end of the ring , grind at least 5mm back. grind a flat faced shallow positive rake like 10-15 degree, no more it may dig into the ring groove. clears the grooves good, i'm sure most know, those who do not well it's a good reason to have gotten ou of bed, those with 8 cylinders i feel for you!.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/162.jpg
foxy-stoat
19-04-2010, 22:02
Adam, thats a similar state of my v6 at the moment, i am looking to buy one of those flexi-honers but whats that one you got and would it be better/easier to use than one of these bad boys?
http://www.pacehigh.co.uk/pages/default.aspx?productID=23958&mode=productDetails
you can borrow it no problem wayne. i'll zip it round saturday, you in all day? both would do a fairly * similar job to be honest but i would favour the one i have if its viable to use it. The other ones are good for crazy jobs like honing 600mm deep small bores, i used one of those for that and made a quick mandrel for it, its more of a 'hey presto' surface finisher than it is a honer.
foxy-stoat
20-04-2010, 09:22
Thats damn good of you chap, in most of the day tinkering with stuff. What sort of time ya thinking? You could give me a 1 minute demo that would be good too as not used anything like this before.
:thumbsup:
ok no problem, make sure you have a charged cordless or an extension lead and cable drill. i'll bring the tool and some thin oil about 12 mid-day i think, adam.
foxy-stoat
20-04-2010, 21:30
Ok captain !!! Nice one.
i cleaned my pistons out this week, a few mysteries appeared, first one bieng one of the oil return holes as marked in picture 1 is directed straight throught the middle of the gudgeon pin (its cross drilled etc).. there is no way oil would get through so i have absoloutely no idea why the hole is even in the piston?!. the others two groups of four return holes were caked solid with crud from scrapping the cylinder walls and scavenging the oil / debris, oil bieng returned to the sump after falling from the inner piston crown.. the crud managing to stay in the feed holes!. i made a quick tool for the oil ring groove to clear it, i made a 4mm - 0.05 width ring oversize diameter and put a rake angle on, cleared all the hard stuff out of that oil ring groove. I used a 2.95mm drill to clear out the oil return holes and used it in a hand tool!, the holes were literally blocked. To make the cleaning job super easy i put them i a bath of a mild alkali detergent type cleaner overnight and it basically brought them up real good, i then rinsed them thoroughly in clean water and they now are submerged in an oil tub until the rings arrive. I also took the oppurtunity to pimp my block, :cool: and why not .
oil way blocked by gudgeon pin, why bother? was blocked rock' solid with oxidised crap.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/191.jpg
group of four oil ways positioned at 90 degree to the useless one, feed straight back to the inner crown / return to sump
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/192.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/193.jpg
i'm having thinking issues now as per.. i wonder that if the oil ways that which the path travels through the gudgeon pin .. maybe under higher temperature if the piston expands, because of course its alluminium.. and the gudgeon pin is steel, the alluminium will expand at a lower temperature and allow oil to pass through that oil way.. i know its a bit far fetched but the pistons are indeed stated as 'Full Floating ' pistons, and are stated not to be connected to the piston boss or the rod directly but to be held between circlips.. so its a floating assembly , which would imply.. it floats and is not connected... also in the manua.. if you want to remove the gudgeon pins you have to (it asks politely) for your to heat the psitons to 60 degrees centi, and then you can slide them out with your finger. my thinking is, if you can do that at 60 degrees , or near on, then the gudgeon pin IS full floating so there might be a small width between the gudgeon pin and its own location boss.. theoretically oil could get through, but how much... surely it cant flow much oil back past those gudgeons in a small gap, its not like you have the pressure of the pump working for you, why would they make such a small gap for oil to flow through without any gauranteed pressure? if it got any small amount of debris it would get blocked quickly.. and mine was blocked. the mind boggles. well, i only unblocked one as i had to remve the gudgeon pin to do so,... that leaves another 5 blocked, i cant see they do anything worthwhile!.. but i better push the other out halfway and clean them or it will pick at me.
foxy-stoat
23-04-2010, 22:50
Please speak english Adam !!!
Good work BTW thats some good pimp'in
:thumbsup:
Thats the thing Adam, once you know, you can let it lay. It will constantly play on your mind.
dont say that lol i'll never rest. like i get anyway in any case.
still waiting for my engine parts to arrive. i got a crank main seal from mrT, for the first and last time i hope, £41. i wouldnt buy patterned on the crank main. that is one ton of work if it gives up early. The mrT main seals are good quality oil seals (viton i believe) with the proper form on the sealing lip for higher speed apllications, normal oil seals do not have the same form they are just dead flat. the higher speed ones have hundreds of angular veins in the sealing surface , reducing the surface area contacting and allowing the oil / grease to lube it. i looked into it.
i have to seal both quarter windows in, one was removed for rust treatment earlier and not re-sealed, and one has a gap, this one was re-treated, fillered, and re-sealed today. i love to hate these jobs.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/197.jpg
another sunday passes, this time i am doing the passenger side window, the milky blue mess in the picture is a rust cure, it stops it from spreading, its good for very light stuff. i first used a wire wheel brush and got rid of any loose stuff, then just treated it. There was no real bad stuff just a little on the window holding bracket bolts. some zinc primer and normal primer later, re-sealed window and bolted back on. And thats another one of those jobs done i love to hate!.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/221.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/222.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/223.jpg
amongst other work over the bank holiday the exhaust mount brackets will be getting welded on. I made some quick weld on mounts make the job easier, these mounts should fit the mk2 turbo hangers. they will be tacked onto the chasis rails in the exhaust back box area of the Mk1, with the exhaust still attatched! (jacked up) then remove exhaust and seam up etc. the tail pipe of this particular system sits a little high and i will have to either angle the pipe down a little or cut a little of the rear panel, or just space the brackets off the mounts with bushes.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/251.jpg
if you want a cad template for these brackets, click this thumb:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/04/252.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/emco/mr2/?action=view¤t=turboweldon.jpg)
the mounts welded up o.k, the mounts are not dead central to the chasis rails because the Mk2 mounting points are obviously spread further apart, but it worked out fine and there are plenty of places on the 'H' bracket to get a good strong weld, seam sealer used after.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/7.jpg
I used the single exit exhaust as a jig, i had to cut a little recess into the rear panel, about 20mm deep, and had to cut off the towing eye to clear the silencer, there is one on the other side still. Both the exhausts tuck up nicely into the space without any further work, except if i were to fit the standard turbo box the 'U' bend on the back box entry pipe needs reducing to clear it away from inner wall of the tyre more, about a 2" reduction will do.
The standard mk2 turbo exhaust fits the mounts aswell so in future i should be abled to buy at least any turbo backbox and it will fit straight up with only mods to the mid-pipes. I am unsure if N/A systems fit the turbo mounting positions.
I tried both up i am going with the single exit i prefer that.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/8.jpg
Great work Adam - this one will hopefully see another 20 years rust free.
Paul Woods
03-05-2010, 18:29
There is something about a Sherwood toning V6 mk1 that gives me the horn...
Nice work ads :thumbsup:
Great work Adam - this one will hopefully see another 20 years rust free.
rust free mk1? are you taking the p1ss :icon_lol: its a question of how much!. luckily.. it's o.k this one, alan had done alot of work prior and undersealed it.
only 1 body repair (well pleased) to do which is the rear right corner under the bumper corner, there is a hole about the size of a £2 coin. common area.
once i'm done fitting the engine and zorst i'm going to clean out two tins of por15 under the car.
cheers paul, keeping it moving.
foxy-stoat
04-05-2010, 09:45
The n/a and turbo backboxes have the same mounting locations, its just where the backboxes join the rest of the pipes that are different.
Defo prefer the twin pipes than the single on your one.
snowtigger
04-05-2010, 19:58
i agree with sherwood tonning v6s give me the horn as well thats why ive got one waiting for a lot of tlc from a mig some day unless it rots faster than i can learn to weld because it need some floor doing two sills and two rear arches and a front wing i think it may end up in the garage at some point, and i may just attack it with a grinder.
or as ive got an uber quick v6 i may diesel d4d turbo or look for a crash damaged prius fancy having some thing uber economical for the missus or i just buy her a second hand prius and wait till she crashes it ,should only be a month or two then.
You're lucky you can do these rust repairs. I'm useless at body repairs, I really wish I coukld weld.
anyone who owns a mk1 should be well taught in the art!. i am looking at mk2's and mk3's for the future really.
I have seen a few mk2's of late posting about rust aswell so that will be catching up in a few years maybe for all you other marquee owners.
after a long wait... my nitroseal gaskets and rings arrived. They are a file fit item,
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/51.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/emco/mr2/?action=view¤t=gaskets.jpg)
http://www.mediafire.com/?3dm0zkgmgmm
also recommended have a look on the mahle website, particularly the e-learning course on the piston rings, very informative site on the ring technology.
have a read of this article on gapping the rings, i have this now to do.
http://www.circletrack.com/howto/1818/index.html
Mahle / perfect circle recommends a gap of 0.012"- 0.040" for the top ring (0.003" minimum gap per inch of cylinder dia + 0.030" = max). and 1.2 to 1.65 times that gap for the second,
ideally, 0.022" gap for top and 0.036" gap for second. so i'll aim for that.
toyota recommend 0.020" for top and 0.020" -0.047" for second, and 0.022" - 0.046" for the oil.
for a quick guide to the arrangement of the top and second ring, here, please note
dependant on the ring set you purchase the orientation my differ, sometimes the bevel on the second ring faces down. generally speaking, all dimples up.
[/URL][URL="http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/emco/mr2/?action=view¤t=ringsguide.jpg"]http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/52.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/emco/mr2/?action=view¤t=idiotsguiderings.jpg)
what i found on the supplied rings were sizes as follows , this is before any work was done:
1st ring 2nd ring
#1 0.36 0.30
#2 0.36 0.30
#3 0.36 0.30
#3 0.36 0.30
#5 0.36 0.30
#6 0.36 0.30
straight as a die!, the sizes gauged were within 0.01 consistency on both rings.
the 0.36 on the top ring i was well happy to leave alone, toyota call for 0.30 mahle call for 0.25, maximums are 1.10 and 1.00 respectively.
the second ring toyota call for 0.38mm minimum and mahle call for a size of 1.2-1.65 times the 1st gap. 0.36 x 1.65 =0.6, the larger bieng the preferred in the case of the second ring.
I aimed for consistency here but overshot twice, gah practice makes permanent. i used a normal file, then a swiss, then a fine india to brake the edges etc.
sizes i returned on the second rings;
0.63
0.63
0.63
0.63
0.8
0.93
i made a quick ring jig to hold the rings while gauging, basically a piece of old scrap with a 87.51 bore put through it.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/65.jpg
snowtigger
11-05-2010, 00:10
Your skills just keep mr amazed mate, there's always that crossover from engineer to mechanic and going that extra mile big thumbs to you sir.
Paul Woods
11-05-2010, 07:50
Agreed tiggs, his attention to detail is just sickening isn't it? I think the guy is a mutant. :)
a ring jig? sounds painful..loving your work adam (as per)..
i can make you a ring sizer if you like nik?,
always got to be thoughtful when talking around making holes in my trade..
tiggs, i'm just a machinist, plenty of us out there. i mean .. it really is just an old ring piece..
snowtigger
11-05-2010, 23:30
Rrr but it's not a rusty old ring piece is it?
It's quite a shiny ring piece gaped to fit the right tool, what kind of lubricant are you using to slide them on with as going in dry could be a recipe for disaster, theres nowt more painfull than a snaped ring grinding away at such a nice bore, after such a good job you have done honeing your tool i watched with great interest as you plunged your tool in and out of that bore till you got a good deglazed look your partner was impressed with the amount of sweat you have put into your hard work as well.
just rememmber when holding your tool with both hands it may vibrate a bit as you slide your shaft in and out of the bore so a bit of lubricant is a must i find it cuts down on that whineing noise you can hear from the other end.
You lot are even boaking me out.
the mr2 did not have an anti roll bar fitted when i got it, instead alan handed me a rev 1 turbo anti roll bar and grumbled something about making some brackets, i finally got round to buying some bushes and making some mounts, the turbo arb is 19mm, aw11 is 16mm.
I used some superflex 19mm bushes, i am not really happy about clamping the old painted roll bar with this polyurethane + grease lube, but, without making a crush sleeve of two halves and adapting the mount to contain the sleeves captive, it will do for now, they have a compression when the bar is fitted between 0.25-0.5mm. I just made some plain chunky blocks, a weld on steel base for the chasis rail, and used some stainless helicoils to strengthen and help prevent the bolts seizing. i have named these roll bar mounts... the no bullshit mounts, shown about actual size.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/69.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/70.jpg
i like em , nice and chunky, no superwaif BS !
snowtigger
14-05-2010, 00:04
i must be sychic as i forsee a batch order being made for shiny arb no bullshit mounts.
Fucksake Adam, if i didn't know better i'd say you have too much spare time!
spare time? 19 months for the build is too quick then?..
snowtigger
15-05-2010, 00:47
So this spare time you have any chance of knocking up some arb mounts blocks then.
any spare time i had, 3 a .m this morning that just went!, we now have 3 extra kittens, and the other cat is fat aswell!, oh my.
And now you're complaining about a house full of pussy?
Seriously man, come on :P
first i ever saw a house like that!. i am real tired.
Hey, I am waiting on an engine stand i decided the garage is toooo far away to build an engine there, it becomes a stress all the tooing and fro-ing i'm going to do it in the garden , it'l have to do under a cover until its ready to drop in.
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/6502210/Trail/searchtext%3EGAZEBO.htm
:D
there was a little bit of body work to do to this car, still some more but nothing major!, great. This time the rear corner needed a repair.
I've cleaned back the paint here and had a look to see how far the rot has spread. I made a mark about 10mm from where the metal is good and chopped all the rot out. you need good metal to weld onto.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/85.jpg
i cut a flat bit of metal, this repair because of the 'curved' shape needs a few pieces to piece it in, the first bit i have roughly peened around the corner. A tip for curved panel work is to get the two pieces of metal close together or touching if you can before you weld. so when welding a long panel, you weld a few spots, then knock the panel infront it with the hammer to get it close, then spot that bit in and a little bit more.. then get the hammer back out and knock that bit infront.. so on an so forth, that way you can peen the panel close to the origonal curved body shape.
think of opening a tin of sardines!.. but instead of rolling the lid off.. you are rolling the sheet metal onto the car, with the help of the hammer peening it around the bend . that is if you are doing a repair on a non flat profile.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/86.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/87.jpg
i had the 180A mig down at its lowest setting (1) ! ,the metal is thin on the mr2 body. the metal I used was 1.6mm plate. If you tried laying a seam on the panel you would just blow a hole through it and warps the panel. a run of spots is best and gives time for the metal to cool.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/88.jpg
I used another flat bit and started from around the corner, i knocked the metal around and upwards from underneath to allow it to marry the shape a little more, difficult corner that but if you take it a little at a time and spot as you go / peen it's all you can do without chopping a whole new corner in.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/89.jpg
Just one more piece to do now.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/90.jpg
all done. before fitting each bit of metal i used a weld through primer on both sides, it gives it that extra bit of protection, leave the sheet metal bare it will be orange within a few days. I liberally sploshed seam sealer from both the inside and out over the repair. luckily..this repair is under the bumper so no cosmetic needed, yo!.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/91.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/92.jpg
and another one of those jobs done i love to hate.
Jiff Lemon
17-05-2010, 01:25
Odd place for them to go Adam, not seen that one before.
not pulled off a rear bumper bar then!? my other had gone a little on both sides in that spot, only a little although it was a G plate.
Real funny occurence look at the rest of the rear its great, just that spot, leads me think the light fitting has something to do with it, perhaps the water was either getting through the rubber gasket seal thingy / fixing holes, or the aerial hole on the side of the panel. either way im going to seal / mastik the lights in , specifically the holes, so it makes it that little bit more proof.
Jiff Lemon
18-05-2010, 00:03
Yup, Bumper bar been off loads of times (everytime the engine is out, as the lifting bar bolts to the bumper mounts). Thats why I thought it odd!
bolting the engine together now. will take a few weeks. thanks wayne for the stand.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/127.jpg
Mathias Destiny
22-05-2010, 23:58
Will be following the engine rebuild Adam, be sure to get plenty of pics ! :icon_smile:
Good luck and thanks for all the help, much appreciated.
heres an old post of mine, i am still trying to figure something out, i need to crack it before the engine go's back in.
The Mk1A fuel pump carrier has only two pipes coming from it, one supply one return. Since i Was using a turbo pump and MK1B carrier there is an extra pipe hole leading from the pump carrier (marked pink) and leads out into the bay with a hardpipe. i would ideally like to know what this extra pipe connects to on the MK1B.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/07/37.jpg
so the extra pipe in the MK1B carrier leads out to the bay is marked purple.
I have not connected all the pipes yet but i believe (without checking the manual) the evapouratour thing labelled with two yellow pipe entry's connects upto the two small pipes coming from the tank front (dark blue and light blue). The supply and return are obvious due to the 1/4" bore size. So, that still leaves me with no connection to the purple pipe.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/133.jpg
heres a look at the expanded system. The evapourater thing has a feed taken off the top end of it (marked yellow) just after the top of the loop. The two ends of that evapourator loop at the bottom connect to the (light blue / dark blue to yellows) marked in the above picture. The feed that comes off the evap makes it's own way down the bulkhead, dips behind the front crossmember to the bottom of it, does a loop!, and comes out the other side and onto the top of the cross member , it then makes its way through what looks like a one way valve, then bizzarely is plumbed straight into a hole in the crossmember, so any fumes coming from filling up the tank i think get fed into the front crossmember!, no wonder the cars stink of petrol when filling.
i wonder if the MK1b has a fume set-up like that.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/134.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/135.jpg
that still does not leave me with a connection to the purple pipe on the MK1B carrier, anyone with a mk1b confirm that connection?
Gary Symons
23-05-2010, 19:23
if it helps, heres an old pic from my mk1b
http://www.mr2mk1turbo.co.uk/photos/8-4.jpg
it does thanks gary, that purple connection is leading straight up. I can also see the 1B has one of the evap pipes leading off through a one way valve like the 1A and possibly into the front crossmember although i cant confirm it bieng plumbed into the cropssmember as the pic is short.. I wonder where that purple feed is leading to when it go's up the bay wall, i'll dlve into the pic archives now.. cheers gaz.
i am hoping to find out where the purple evap pipe terminates.
this week i have been sticking parts back on the engine, As it stands we have new bigs, mains, thrusts, piston rings , a new oem crank main seal, new oil pump main seal, new water pump (normal flowing type! not bad copy.), belt tensioners, thermostat etc. got the heads and the rest of it yet to bolt on. work is in progress. ive been using loctite 5910 as my sealent for the pump surfaces. good thing about sealing this now is i can see up inside the block and see if any big splurges of sealent are hanging off, the oil strainer should stop any escapees but it wont stop my paranoia!.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/184.jpg
Jiff Lemon
27-05-2010, 22:41
You didn't get my picture message then Adam? 1b Evap tank has a second pipe going into the top that the purple pipe connects to.
cheers jeff, i thought so because of the extra pump pipe. i would like one now so i do not have to block off the extra evap feed. phone does not do MMS. tyvm anyway.
it's raining , which puts my deluxe open air garage out of use, so i nipped into to a sheltered workshop at work and snotted together a battery tray from B+Q 25 x 3 angle iron and thin strip (10 x 5). I thought i may aswell make it a bit longer and make space for this handy little 5 Litre (1 gallon) plastic drum, it will hold spare oil or water. It will fit the origonal mr2 plastic tray battery in, and also will utuilise the origonal battery retaning bracket which sits & bolts over the top of the battery on the aw11. Hopefully there will be a dry day over the bank holiday and i can get it snotted into the frunk with a support leg.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/198.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/199.jpg
if you want to make something similar as a rough guide here are your material requirements:
Extended battery tray
materials:
25 x 3 angle iron (mild steel) : 1.5 metre
10 x 5 flat mild steel bar: 1 metre
M6 x 1.0 studding: 1.5 metre.
origonal mr2 plastic battery tray (270mm x 180mm) : 1
origonal mr2 battery retaining bracket (not pictured) : 1
cut pieces needed:
25 x 3 angle : 2 x 450mm, 2 x 210mm
10 x 5 flat bar: 4 x 180mm, 1 x 270mm
m6 studding: 4 x 300mm
click the thumb for a rough cad: the holes you should put in after you have trial fitted your items, incase yours are different from mine. only once you have put in your studding for the extra fluids tank, mark the top hole positions on your cut piece of 270mm and drill them through 6mm to clear the studding.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/200.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/emco/mr2/?action=view¤t=batterytray.jpg)
Standard battery tray
if you want to make just a standard sized battery tray using the oem aw11 plastic under tray and top battery retaining bracket , without any extra space, your material requirements are as follows:
materials:
25 x 3 angle iron (mild steel) : 1 metre
10 x 5 flat bar (mild steel): 0.5 meter
M6 x 1.0 Studding: 0.75 metre
cut pieces needed:
25 x 3 angle : 2 x 285mm, 2 x 210mm
10 x 5 flat bar: 2 x 180mm
m6 studding: 2 x 300mm
click the thumb for a rough cad:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/201.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/emco/mr2/?action=view¤t=shorttray.jpg)
NB: to secure the studding, i threaded it through the bottom of the welded tray by 5mm and tightened a nut up on it, i then welded the studding to the nut and welded the nut to the tray.
cost about £15 in steel / studding, or rummage thorugh some skips and cut up some old stuff
:0)
i decided against having the battery in the frunk after putting my super size tray in for an eyeball!, well, i would like to get a spare space saver wheel in there and even with a normal battery tray it's tight. So this time around i will go for the trunk!, i'm quite happy with a few extra kilos in the rear. so i snotted it in, job done. I will have to remove the battery to get at the right rear light cluster, but once removed the light swings down into the space without any obstruction, no big deal. i wanted it as far over as possible to maximise what boot space i had left .
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/203.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/204.jpg
i also welded on my no bullshit mounts today, everything went fine.
I first removed the old underseal and weld thru primed the chasis rail. The mounts fit exactly behind the origonal arb mount holes, infact if you a fit bolt into the rear o.e.m mount hole and then push the mount upto the bolt on each side (toward engine bay, see pic 3), clamp it there, its aligned perfect parrallel and the drop link hole on the front of the roll bar is in perfect vertical alignment with the drop link hole on the suspension strut, that is for a rev 1 turbo bar.
once held in position with a jack, tack the mount bases, remove the alluminium and polybush inners, continue to seam the mounts on all sides.
there is about 7-8mm land each side of the mount bases to weld. seam sealer after, jobs a goodun.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/205.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/206.jpg
Paul Woods
31-05-2010, 09:00
If Carlsberg made ARB mounts... :thumbsup:
i got the ISCV pocvip'd today: http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?6268-P.o.c.v.i.p.s/page5&highlight=pocvip (http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/showthread.php?6268-P.o.c.v.i.p.s/page5&highlight=pocvip)
thanks for doing the leg work in the first instance!, saved me some figuring. I managed to get the plunger about 1mm past the bottom face with my blob of tig weld., so i'll try it first and see how it is, i can either file it down or add another blob later.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/2.jpg
Paul Woods
02-06-2010, 19:08
Yep works a treat that does!
still waiting on a single set of piston rings since 2 weeks , i broke 1 ring on fitting, g'damn!. i do have a piston ring compressor, two infact, i had never tried to fit a ring down the bore without one before, so what ever possesed me i dont know / twat. Once that arrives i can finish bolting the top end on.
in the meantime i made a quick spanner to hold the crank while doing up the main crank bolt, the main crank bolt is 245Nm / 180lb/ft. I made it to cover a pcd from 60-65 as i only had a piece of paper with two holes punched in it for a stencil!. i can confirm the pitch of the two tightening holes are 65mm. 8mm bolts will do or dowels etc. make the tool about 18 inches (450mm) long, 76mm od, and bore about 40 to clear your socket.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/7.jpg
we got some rx7 leather seats to fit, they look real comfy so i cant wait to try them out. not any lighter or heavier than mr2 just a nicer look and leather, bags more comfort. so i guess some sub frames are needed. the seats fit good into the mr2 perhaps with 2 inches (50mm) clear either side.
one of the mr2 rails is bolt on from the bottom of the seat, the other rail is bolted on the side. So i will simply unbolt the bottom bolted one, and cut the rail of the one that is bolted on the side. then bolt them frames in, and put a seat above the frames ... fill in the blanks etc. tbc.
mr2 left, rx7 right.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/8.jpg
plenty of space
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/9.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/10.jpg
snowtigger
05-06-2010, 20:26
Rx7 look better than the rx8 seats as the wankel logo is all over the 8 seats.
yep also liking the seats, look like they belong there! Coming along nicely chaps! Keep up the good work...
I had a measure up today and a test sit!, they fit o.k a little higher on the seat than an old tired set of mr2 seats but not by much.i am going to make brackets using either 5 or 6mm plate. i'll just bolt these plates to the rx7 seats, drop them in place over the mr2 sub frames and tack them, then remove for seaming / re-paint. here is a view from the front of the seat notice the rx7 bolt pitch is smaller than the mr2 pitch, so iall i have to do is run a bar across the two mr2 subframes with the rx7 bolt pitch. The pitch the other way is longer than mr2, hence the 'U' shaped bracket for the rear. The standard frame material is approx 2.5mm so 5-6 will be good with some strong seams.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/12.jpg
click the thumb for a cad:
[/URL][URL="http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/emco/mr2/?action=view¤t=rx7frameassembly1.jpg"]http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/13.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/emco/mr2/?action=view¤t=rx7frameassembly.jpg)
Jiff Lemon
06-06-2010, 19:05
is it worth making the brackets with a step in them (so they're almost U shaped) so that they drop the height of the seat?
helo jeff, no sir' you'll see why in the picture!. the other side is much the same.
although the mounting pitch is smaller the body of the seat is wider, i did consider welding a bracket inside of the subframes (between) to give me 6mm drop, but i prefer to have it on top, looking from a strength perspective.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/15.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/16.jpg
What I would have given for a spanner to hold the crank. Great looking seat.
i can confirm you probably wouldnt fit in it unless i cut the roof panel out :icon_lol:
nope, its a tinny.
this evening i hacked up the drivers seat, the drivers side brackets are a littlemore invlolved than the passenger because it gets more use and has more functions like seat lift and tilt etc, just leaveall that mech attatched to the seat. we only need the rails.
like the passenger side there are 3 attatchment point rivets to cut off the rails, here circled one which is basically an oversize rivet, grind most of it you'll find you can prize the rail apart:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/18.jpg
see all 3 here
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/19.jpg
cut them off the outer rail, and unbolt the inner rail hinge bracket, you get left with two more rivets to grind off, there is also a spot weld between the two rivets you'll need to cut through (rivets circled).
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/20.jpg
bolt the subframes back in you get left with this, you can see where the simple adaptor brackets will be welded.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/21.jpg
last thing to do.. find some steel !. dont get finger jammed in locking mech, cuts finger like sausage..
snowtigger
08-06-2010, 12:16
I spy the rare mk1a subwoofer shite speaker.
Good work there mr Adam sir am liking this alot is a jae date out of the question for this fine mk1a?
hi mike, it might be running (fingers crossed) but it probably would not be painted.. , in that time i've got to get it in / exhaust / plumbed / wired / cosmetic body work roughly finished off.
I want to spend a little time taking off the front wings and applying por15 etc, and also a little needed under the rear valence / arches and in the frunk, possibly the front chasis if i strip it a bit back. If its not ready by JAE it's o.k i can come and see all the other cars with anticipation, it wouldnt be that long after and it would give some points to look forward to after the main event..
it may not be necessary to have adjustable gear change cables, not all swaps require one/them, but the majority do, the symptoms are after connecting your gear shifter and selector cables for the first time after a different box is put in you cannot select gears properly after everything is connected and your box is apparently fine , what you may see is when connected the gear lever is a bit far back or forward.
To remedy this we put in a little adjusting mech so you can dial in the right position of the gear lever by screwing the mech in or out. i'm waiting for parts to arrive so just getting ahead on possible hold ups later on while i have the time!. i have not actually fitted my gearbox yet.
i cut 10mm from the left hand cable as depicted, leaving about 60-65mm on the rod eye end (enough to hold and thread at the same time!) , then threaded approx 25-30mm on either cable side left using an m6 die and holder.
I then made a simple 30mm joiner, just a piece of hex bar with a M6 thread tapped through it, two nuts and 2 locking washers to lock it. or do it your own way.
the right hand side cable i will leave until the box is in, that usually requires shortening only.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/43.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/44.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/45.jpg
Great idea. Loving these little touches.
what i found on the supplied rings were sizes as follows , this is before any work was done:
1st ring 2nd ring
#1 0.36 0.30
#2 0.36 0.30
#3 0.36 0.30
#3 0.36 0.30
#5 0.36 0.30
#6 0.36 0.30
straight as a die!, the sizes gauged were within 0.01 consistency on both rings.
the 0.36 on the top ring i was well happy to leave alone, toyota call for 0.30 mahle call for 0.25, maximums are 1.10 and 1.00 respectively.
the second ring toyota call for 0.38mm minimum and mahle call for a size of 1.2-1.65 times the 1st gap. 0.36 x 1.65 =0.6, the larger bieng the preferred in the case of the second ring.
I aimed for consistency here but overshot twice, gah practice makes permanent. i used a normal file, then a swiss, then a fine india to brake the edges etc.
sizes i returned on the second rings;
0.63
0.63
0.63
0.63
0.8
0.93
i made a quick ring jig to hold the rings while gauging, basically a piece of old scrap with a 87.51 bore put through it.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/05/65.jpg
Did you use a single "bore" for all you rings ?
I have always matched the rings to the bore that they were going into
this is a standard engine building practices .
As there is always a variance + - (tolerance) when machining .
Did you use a single "bore" for all you rings ?
I have always matched the rings to the bore that they were going into
this is a standard engine building practices .
As there is always a variance + - (tolerance) when machining .
standard precision engineers practice is to 'gauge', before making a guage! and i checked all 6 bores with my telescopic at various points down the bores.
. they returned between 87.50 and 87.51 , after that i took out a calculator.. and checked that 0.01 discrepancy on the bore diameter would not make a difference in a circumfrence.
so ..the discrepancy of a circumfrence over a 0.01 deviation in diamater = 0.03141592654mm
or less than a thou.. as an engine builder, you would be lucky to gauge that, tell me otherwise, i have been machining for 14 years.
which is why i am happy to make a single gauge, thanks for the input.
all those without precision engineering experience, i reccomend you follow the normal procedure ;-)
no point in me sitting here typing posts full of simple calculations like above, i try and keep it easy going bud!.
a quick for instance, before i took a skim on my head or even made the tool.. i clocked my mill table & spindle to within a thou perependicularity over a span of about 600mm using a bar i made and a clock attatched to it etc, and then swing it round and adjust your pan/tilt on the mill head. so... thats in the X Y plane to ensure i do not dish the head either way convex or concave. I then and only then put up the facemill arbor and took a wipe of the seating face, using the power feed on the mill X axis to face the face mill arbor true.. so as true as it could get it.. once the face mill was sitting on its arbor i then ran each cutting tip over a stationery clock and adjusted them all in to within 0.04 tip height.. not perfect but in my experience better to have a little deviation as it has more chance of chatter if they were all the same height. once that part was done i made some blanks on the lathe.. then stuck them all on the surface grinder as a batch.. and licked over all 8, so dead nuts for 8 pillars, because you cant seat a 3vz head flat on its cam shaft side. then i put the on the mill bed (bolted in 8 positions according to the 3vz head).. i then ran a clock over them pillars.. all good. i then bolted up the head.. and ran a clock over the face at all points i could.. kinda like playing screwball scramble with the mill handle to check for deviation.. so then and only then i took a cut.
its much easier to say.... "i skimmed the head" :icon_lol:
i also made the arbor that holds the tool.. its a custom jobby.. made from a 200mm facemill and a big chunk of EN8 billet.. here.. let me share some stuff i dont normally bother with,
face mill used for skim is on the right bottom
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/47.jpg
arbor adaptor machined
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/48.jpg
it fits!
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/49.jpg
me taking a pass on the arbor seat face
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/50.jpg
just to really take the piss.. before that was made i rebuilt that machine spindle fully, all bearings / belt drive / adjustable speed drive pulleys. and lapped the bed / look in above pic, see allready clocked up an hour or so explaining... it is evident i am obsessed with cutting :icon_lol: consequently and the only bit seen was the video i posted up,.. just a simple skim'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wksvDnL_q5A
and for anyone interested get yourself a decent facemill and machine and taking a cut over a large diameter at a low speed on a properly secured head.. you'll do fine. I was worried about chatter, infact i cranked it up to 500 rpm and took about 0.10mm cut at once, it was effortless no chatter, no nowt just nice face. mission accomplished for me..
Gary Symons
11-06-2010, 19:29
looks like you have some nice toys there. Ive not done any proper machining since I was an apprentice, would love to set up a little machine shop for myself one day!
aye, i've got a few tools, always want more and always will take more i love it. I recently picked up two 5 ton hydraulic machine vices / matched pair, thats another 2 to the collection, and just the other week another 40mm diamemter drill with that step drill / centre drill form on it i picked up. i tested it and just drilled straight thru a solid steel billet, 40mm hole no bull on centre .. no pilot drills, easy!. i use those step drills all the time matey brilliant, i have said it before and i will say it again your unca was a geniarse for drill forms!.
your welcomed to some back if you do get any machine tools, i have many doubles. go on buy a bigger boat..
Hi Adam, got some proper kit there!
How does the arbor retain the facemill adaptor? I can see the driving lugs but does it bolt together from underneath or is there a taper on that arbor?
Just for peoples information I asked Adam to fix up some patio door runner brackets that had worn out at my folks house. What he did was completely re-engineered them!! They work so well my parents had to adjust how much effort they put into opening the door for fear of it running into the stops as it glides so effortlessly now. His attention to detail is amazing!
For drills without centring, have you heard of Delta 's' drills? We used them upto around 20mm as far as I can remember and cut out the need for centering. Were pricy though compared to the normal stuff.
For sme good cheap stuff have a look at peaker pattison auctions machine tool auction site (http://www.ppauctions.com/online/index.php?)
i'll check that link paul thx, try Apex and go-dove. lee i thank you for the blessing on the patio door runners although not the weirdest thing i have been asked to make!, The weirdest thing to date... a guy i know asked me to make him a branding iron.. so he could brand his missus arse with it in the shape of a horseshoe! i still have a scan for it, never came thorugh that job but i did request that he video'd it so i could see :eusa_dance:
anyone for a branding iron?
standard precision engineers practice is to 'gauge', before making a gauge! and i checked all 6 bores with my telescopic at various points down the bores.
. they returned between 87.50 and 87.51 , after that i took out a calculator.. and checked that 0.01 discrepancy on the bore diameter would not make a difference in a circumference.
so ..the discrepancy of a circumference over a 0.01 deviation in diameter = 0.03141592654mm
or less than a thou.. as an engine builder, you would be lucky to gauge that, tell me otherwise, i have been machining for 14 years.
which is why i am happy to make a single gauge, thanks for the input.
all those without precision engineering experience, i reccomend you follow the normal procedure ;-)
I stand corrected
didn't realized that you had premeasured the bores.
Making the gauge sure beats standing over the engine
fitting and checking the rings . http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
hit the nail on the head bud.... not because i wanted to avoid a good procedure of gapping per bore like you say i would never knock the method because its absoloute.... but my back is damaged from working in that tiny garage before, the engine was on a crate then so i thought it was a novel solution to the problem of hanging over the engine (after gauging ) and then go workshop to do it sitting down in comfort, plus any tool to hand required, inspection equipment (reticules) etc :thumbsup: still managed to go over on two gaps but as far as i can read into the function of the second ring it will be allright on this engine
hey.. gdamn spare rings are taking an age getting here from the states i expect HM tosspots are taxing them at the border.
i'm having someone make the subframes for me as i didnt have any 6 inch x 5 or 6mm plate laying about, £30 quid gets them. they are getting punched out from solid at the local tin bashers, would have cost me that to get some flat bar in.
also i got a tin of por 15 on order, i'm going to rip all the carpet up and do the floor pan, and remove the front wings and do the undersides, and then some in the frunk.. and whatever i got left in the tin i will splosh on the motah, probably on the A pillars , rear subframe and suspension mounts/ valence etc. got a us quart.. just under a litre, £29.50 a tin from frost.co.uk , well.. it will be worth it we havent done much else bodywork so if thats all i have to do im laughing http://www.aw11tech.com/forum/images/smilies/icon/cool.gif
The sub frame adaptors came back on monday so i offered them up to the toyota subframes, a little fettling required with a big hammer, i just knocked the knuckle behind the adaptor frame (right arrow) to drop the adjusting bar down sub flush to the top of the sub frame, as before then it was just sticking proud a couple of mil. still works fine. no further adjustment needed on the passenger side.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/75.jpg
the drivers side needed a little adjustment also that was the locking mechanism again.. this time the little ear that sticks proud of the sub frame and holds the puller/connection wire between the inner and outer adjusting mechs.. i knocked that flat and had to take up a bit of slack in the wire with some pliers as a result and just pulled the cable through bit more etc, pic later for that.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/06/76.jpg
with these frames i had to put a 10mm nut inbetween the frame and the seat, without, the polyfoam inner on the seats was just fouling the adjusting bars. space it 10mm up and its sorted. I'm out of the country for a few days, looking forward to getting back!, to weld them in.
my replacement piston ring finally came, soon i will finish bolting the engine together.
foxy-stoat
30-06-2010, 08:53
Thanks some good works there Adam. Let me know when you need my crane and I'll drop it round. If you need a hand getting that sucker in, give me a shout.
will do cap'n!, i'll send for the choppa..
i found something out this evening disturbing.. you can actually bolt the heads on these V6's on the wrong side quite easily without the cams in!, they are symetrical/identical and the water holes in the heads line up with the gaskets on both sides, see i just looked under the head for the two hole pattern, found it, assumed it was the right bank, bolted it on , proceeded to bolt the left head on and thought no more of it. today i tried bolting a cam in.. i found that the pulley end of the cam was up the wrong end! sticking out the flywheel side, because the cam is off centre. i'll be damned i bolted the heads on the wrong sides! for a minute i thought i had a pair of lefties :rofl: as there were 4 v6 heads in the garage and alan just split two off to the side for me to pick up, it never occured to me they are identical to the fashion that they are interchangeable, toyota should have used two different sized dowel pins for location to eliminate that mistake. they were new head bolts so i have re-used them this once and of course...bolted them on the right way.. DOH!. d*ck head of the day :icon_cool:
Paul Woods
02-07-2010, 06:57
Mate you are not alone there, it's been done before trust me! We have a car in at the moment with the heads on the wrong way around.
:icon_lol: cant believe they did not make that dufuss proof.
a replacemrnt piston ring came last week so i was abled to finally put the last rings in and bolt it up. Pay no attention to the left cam pulley bieng on back to front!, this was post fitting of the timing belt.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/7.jpg
and with the timing belt fitted and tensioner on and checked a few times for the correct timing, all good.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/8.jpg
next thing to do is fit all the ancillary parts, missing a few bolts right now.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/9.jpg
i had a full on day of mr2'ing yesterday (sunday), blitzed a lot of jobs off the list. I started with tack welding the rx7 - mr2 subframes in place with the seats in the car:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/20.jpg
i then removed the subframes and seam welded them, left them to cool:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/21.jpg
Then i stripped out all of the carpets to get a good look at the floor pan, it was o.k, there had been some repairs , not perfect but after some knocking and prying with a hammer i was satisfied it was all solid :smile: . I noticed the sills on this car are very good, they must have been done at some point. I removed some of the looser stick on seal on the floor pan and left all the good stuff in to do its job, i then covered the floor pan and side walls liberally, inside the B pillars and a little on the A pillars with that nasty but brilliant por15.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/22.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/23.jpg
i then did the frunk:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/24.jpg
the trunk & battery tray:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/25.jpg
and i removed the exhaust and painted behind the inner valence, the rear valence is perfect on this car so we want to keep it that way, and then the outer. i also did around the rear light cluster surrounds in & out ,after that repair a few weeks back i thought it best. Also under neath the rear bumper area, inside the rear wings at the bottom (rear corners) and outside the rear corners at the bottom. I also did under the sills fron front to back, by the end of the day i had enough of that por15, and it had enough of my skin off with the scrubbing brush. I brought the quart tin (just under a litre), i have about a third of tin left which i am saving for inside of the front wings .
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/26.jpg
and the seat subframes got a coating:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/27.jpg
the carpets were a bit manky at 25 years old now!, not sure how much bodily fluids have been in ground into that carpet :icon_mrgreen: so i took it down the jet wash and nicked some of the missus washing stuff gave them a good going over.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/28.jpg
sub frame pops on here:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/29.jpg
seats fit here: if your over 6 feet you'll need make custom subframes which drop them lower, the mk1 adaptors would take 6 footer max i reckon they are about 2 inches higher than stock on the seat. its not the head thats the problem because you can move the seat the back, but as you do the leg room above the thigh dissapears under the steering wheel, we are going to get a smaller aftermarket wheel anyway so that should be a lot more roomier. i can fit comfortably but i am only 5' 10 ish. i'm happy with them .
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/30.jpg
tonys mount fitted, top drawer :thumbsup:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/31.jpg
i have some questions.. when fitting the 3vz, did anyone take the inlet manifold off or does it fit easy in from the bottom?. did you leave the alternator on, silly questions and all, but did you strip anything else off to get it in? did you fit the loom on first?
Jiff Lemon
07-07-2010, 00:16
Inlet off whilst fitting does make life a little easier Adam. Alternator and loom can stay on though.
cheers jeff much appreciated. i'll take the inlet mani-off and put on the loom. What did you do about your sump plug switch? that part of the loom i am assuming you left it unconnected and then reset the error codes just the once?
also there is a largish vacuum tank i think for the iacv.. did you use it
Jiff Lemon
07-07-2010, 22:57
Yes and Yes.
Mounted the vac tank on the bulkhead above the fuel filter and extending the pipes I think.
ta and ta, qabouyt the fuel filter, did the camry come with a fuel pipe that connected direct to the mk1 filter, or did you patch two cables together..
Jiff Lemon
07-07-2010, 23:40
You cut the end off the pipe where it joins the fuel rail as it leaves you with a straight barb. If I've got the fuel rail I'll do it before sending, that way all you need is a length of fuel pipe.
yesterday i removed the wings and front bumper and dusted the cobwebs off!, looks pretty good under there after going round with hammer to check for any rust under the underseal, there was one hole right up in the inner left arch , it was just below the fixing bolt of the drivers side wiper but in the arch if you see what i mean. I welded a plate over the hole as you do, and seam sealed it.
I then went under both arches, the front bumper panels inside and out, and again the seals and B pillar shuts with the last of the por15, also the inside of the front wings. I believe alan allready undersealed the arches and wings and the wings are great anyway :)
i'm all done with welding and treating the chasis :mrgreen: , next job is to mount the gearbox but before i do i'm going to uprate the front and rear mounting threads in it, they always strip out so i'll will go m14 fine or helicoils, i would much rather do the work on the floor than in situ.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/52.jpg
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http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/55.jpg
Looking good adam, nice work there
cheers si, i see you are back from hong kong phoey!.. will be watching for the ideas you dreamt up on the plane for the flappy paddles..
i uprated the 4 gearbox mount holes with standard coarse helicoils (you want the standard coarse thread form for this application because the thread form is deeper than a fine thread and prevents stripping better) , it took me 30 minutes when the box was on the floor. A pack of ten helicoils is about £4, the tool & tap granted a little more expensive at circa £25 but i allready had those. I then changed the thrust bearing over to a new bearing, i used an E153 turbo box bearing which the toyota part number is 31230-20191 for the turbo, I have an N/A S54 box i hear you say!, well its been tried and tested and although two different part numbers and a slight difference in bore size the turbo clutch thrust bearing will fit the N/A box and work fine. The N/A (S54) part number is 31239-32080 . The reason why i used a turbo thrust is 1, it works fine, 2, the turbo bearing is £22, the NA is £35 the only differnece bieng the bore size which is slightly larger on the turbo by a quarter mil each side, every other dimension on the bearing is identical. it matters not in this application.
Wayne brought round his engine crane / cheers bud!, invaluable tool. I am waiting now just for longer flywheel bolts , i ordered toyota part number 90105-10207 , which is what paul used in the origonal v6 conversion as they are a little longer than the standard bolts. cost about £1.86 inc vat each / £14.95 for 8.
once the bolts have arrived i'll bolt on the fly and clutch, bolt on the box and slide the thing under the car at long last 8-) , thats planned for the week after next and wayne and alan will help.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/77.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/78.jpg
foxy-stoat
17-07-2010, 18:12
Adam, you need to pull out the rod on the middle on the bottom twist that red thing with 2 bits on 180 degress and insert the rod again if you want to move the crane like that!
heh heh, found that out allready, its a good brake!
snowtigger
18-07-2010, 01:16
I have exactly the same crane and I bust the bolt in it wondering why it wouldn't go forward, on another note have sent your parcel of have you got it yet mate? have been on hols so left it with my dad to send.
snowtigger
18-07-2010, 22:16
Will get on to him on Monday morning mate to make shure he's sent it when he was supposed too.
lifting the back end of the mk1 i always manage to get a rope mark in the paint or a chain chip on the bumper , the valence is also especially fragile. we made some quick plates to move the lifting point away, just drilled and file'd and they bolt inside the rear chasis legs. this should help lift the car easy with two high tensile m12 bolts (should hold about 10 ton each) we are using a tow rope doubled over to lift which should cope, big bang if it doesnt :icon_cool: , but of course we will be blocking it up with beams as it go's.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/83.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/84.jpg
click thumb for a cad:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/85.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/hutchisonphotos/emco/mr2/?action=view¤t=hoistplate.jpg)
foxy-stoat
21-07-2010, 21:53
Thats some nice cad work there !! when you thinking about the move?
monday matey providing the weather is good enough for some pokery!, but i'll read up on the weather and report back, be by the batphone on sunday...
foxy-stoat
22-07-2010, 09:18
Righto reg. This is my portable tefelone device number 118118.
got it, ta, be ready for some crank calls if you leave the number up!. i do get bored
foxy-stoat
22-07-2010, 21:33
Sorted
^ lols.
today i got the engine and box mated together, that has to be the easiest gearbox to fit it's so light! childs play compared to an E153 or a 4age box even. I guess having an engine crane and a transimission dolly helps 8-) i only had to drill out one hole to take an M12 bolt , i used a 12.5mm dril and pushed it through from the gearbox flange side. that and two other holes are M12's, on the back side of the box there are two holes which are threaded both sides!, the block side is m12 (fine) and the box side is m10 fine, luckily both the threads line up perfectly , so i used a m10 fine through the m12 hole and it sails through into the box, so you have 5 bolts on the top side. There is a block suport plate (half moon type casting) which fits in underneath between block and overlapping box lip, i have yet to fit that and see how many more bolts on the underside of the box will be used. tommorow she go's in :icon_mrgreen:
we used a Toda cro-moly lightweight fly and a helix padle clutch with a turbo pressure plate. so the clutch and pick up should be quick :eusa_angel:
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/89.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/90.jpg
incase you are wondering what the thing is sticking out the oil filter housing... i just realised i left my oil pressure sender pipe in the hole for safe storage! , must take that out...
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/91.jpg
bolts used for top half, the ones circled pink are obscured from view on the back side of the block, those were two m10 fines.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/92.jpg
today has been long awaited!, the engine is hung on its mounts. Wayne came over and helped cheers mate a great help, i could not have done it without you.
we toyed about deciding which was the easiest way to get the thing under and permitting a high lift of the back we could just shove it under the wheel arch from the side. you can do it from the back of course but unless you tip it over you'll hit the suspension mounts and the crane gets in the way. we hitched it up 1.050 metres measured from the bottom corner and it gave us about 40mm clearence without the wheel. we are on the home straight. what i have to do now is front and rear mounts (first job), exhaust, plumbing, wiring.. and she's a go er, i reckon a couple of months now but they will fly by :D
note on the rear o2 sensor its close to the rear cross member so that will blanked off with a thin plate and relocated at the next closest point down the downpipe. otherwise it fits well and i can shut the lid with an inch or so to clear.
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/101.jpg
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2010/07/102.jpg
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Gary Symons
25-07-2010, 19:20
Nice work Adam :cool:, BTW there is a parcel on its way to you.
Jiff Lemon
25-07-2010, 21:11
Don't envy you having to shift it around on the gravel! I still reckon the woodsy cradle is the ultimate one. Must knock one up for my forthcoming work.....
great progress, must be nice to see the engine in the car finally!
yup.
i just tried fitting the camry supported shaft into the S54 box it does not fit / too big!. well i have a mk2/na short side shaft to try, and also a 1990 celica 2.0 n/a supported shaft + outboard shaft , so i'll try those.
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