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View Full Version : mk3 LSD diffs in a S54 box



Paul Woods
06-03-2008, 20:03
Well i bought a couple of UK mk3 gearboxes off mark on the MR2ROC just to experiment with them.We were told that all UK mk3's have LSD as standard... and that this LSD unit will fit into a mk2 S54 box...hinterestin i hear you say! Interesting because a S54 box with LSD doesnt exist,so this could well be the solution.

Well i can confirm it is! We took one of the mk3 LSD units out,and swapped over the mk2 diff gear,the LSD bolted straight onto the mk2 gear :thumbsup:

It will need the mk2 diff bearings pulling off and fitting onto the mk3 LSD but apart from that its a total success.... so for all you S54 V6 builders this is a godsend... so get hunting for UK spec mk3 boxes chaps,they have just the LSD we need.

I will add pics to this thread tomorrow :thumbsup:

Garbe
06-03-2008, 20:15
Excellent R&D Mr Woods :thumbsup:

So the mk2 na drive shafts still fit?

I was under the impression that you could not fit an LSD to a box that didn't have it - because no room in the box.

Paul Woods
06-03-2008, 20:24
yes hasad the mk2 driveshafts have the same inner spline as mk3 ones,so the mk2 NA shafts are plug n play with this.

The new LSD diff fits in the casing perfectly :thumbsup:

It cost me £200 to do this research and it could have ended up a failuire,sometimes you just got to take a chance on something.... luckily this time it worked out.

Next on the list is a 88-91 2.0ltr 5 speed manual camry gearbox,its fifth gears look promising! :)

OlberJ
06-03-2008, 22:00
:clap: Bravo sir, Bravo.

Was that £200 for 2 boxes? What's the norm for one?

LSD and 164MPH top speed, rapid as fuck acceleration and lightweight.....yep, ye can keep yer tubby boxes lol

OlberJ
06-03-2008, 22:01
Oh and av been looking for the Camry 5th gear, looking about £100 delivered from a parts place, am sure we can find them cheaper in a scrappy somewhere.

PsychomIKE
06-03-2008, 23:35
This is something I was looking to do in the future with the mk1/3SGE. You say the diff bearings need pulling off Paul, is that something you were replacing on mine anyway? (I forget as so much of it was shagged anyway).

If it is I might be intersted in getting the job sorted now, if you're willing!

snowtigger
06-03-2008, 23:57
it cost me 160 notes for a turbo rev3 lsd this sounds good, good work mister w.

Paul Woods
07-03-2008, 08:07
olie i gave £150 for two fecked mk3 gearboxes,they rattle like a box of cogs,ok not the best similie ive ever come out with!

then £50 delivery,i thought it was worth a punt to find out for sure if it works...and it does.

Hi mike,no we dont usually open up a perfectly fine gearbox,no need.... this is only something we can offer if a supply of mk3 boxes becomes available or the customer supplies one.There will also be extra labour involved fitting it.To be honest id rather find an extended 5th gear set as well so i can offer the whole service in one hit.

Olie where was the camry 5th gear for £100?

Jiff Lemon
07-03-2008, 09:25
i gave £150 for two fecked mk3 gearboxes,they rattle like a box of cogs,ok not the best similie ive ever come out with!

They rattle like two skeletons fornicating in a tin box?

PsychomIKE
07-03-2008, 09:44
Ah right Paul, no worries then. This is probably something I'll look into at a later date, along with some uprated cams.

Hm, my mum's got a mk3... wonder if she would notice if I took the diff out.

OlberJ
07-03-2008, 10:16
I'll get the email tonight chief, just one of those find a part places.

Paul Woods
07-03-2008, 19:48
ok olie,keep me posted...oh a big feck off box of bad wiring turned up today,at first glance ive already seen 4 things not wired right,bend over and take your punishment!

OlberJ
07-03-2008, 19:52
It was Murf, not me. lol

I should've checked it to be fair. And i didn't send the 4age ECU did i?

Here's those details :


Vehicle Details:
TOYOTA CAMRY 1989 ...

Quote Details:

Part 1: GEARBOX (MANUAL) - 5TH GEAR ONLY REQUIRED - £60.00 - 30 Day Guarantee - Next Day Delivery
Additional Notes:
we can supply a gearbox without bell housing
Please call to confirm availability



Postage & Packaging for this order £20.00


TOTAL INCLUDING VAT + DEL = £94.00

If you would like more information or would like to follow up this quote, the suppliers details are listed below

Company Name: - Heathrow Japanese Spares Ltd
Tel: 020 8577 1423

Quote Ref: OE306059

Garbe
07-03-2008, 20:52
4 things !!!!! Now that rings a bell lol

OlberJ
08-03-2008, 00:16
:doh: Never even spotted that one Garbe lol

millentubby
08-03-2008, 02:37
ok olie,keep me posted...oh a big feck off box of bad wiring turned up today,at first glance ive already seen 4 things not wired right,bend over and take your punishment!

Did you get the Ironmongery aswell? Jaffa kindly took care of the postage through his work and I've been having nightmares about it disappearing!

Let me know if it arrived safely :thumbsup:

Paul Woods
08-03-2008, 08:38
all safe n sound matey :thumbsup:

lol the "4 things" took a while to register lol

Paul Woods
18-03-2008, 19:40
heres a pic as promised... what you see here is a mk3 LSD diff,on a mk2 crownwheel and mk2 side bearings....

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2008/03/245.jpg

pretty straightforward stuff really.

biteme
18-03-2008, 19:55
This has been done before though, Paul - remember? ;) ;) ;)

Paul Woods
18-03-2008, 20:13
as with everything mate,as with everything....

biteme
18-03-2008, 20:15
*reassuring nod, nod, wink, wink*

chris99
05-05-2008, 15:11
Has this actually been installed and tested yet? Very interesting stuff. Will it cope with V6 power levels?

biteme
05-05-2008, 17:01
the N/A box has been used ok for the V6 power levels - at stock V6 power... not sure about owt else though dude

chris99
05-05-2008, 17:08
Keep up big man. I was talking about the LSD:roll: :banghead:

biteme
05-05-2008, 17:10
*hangs head in shame*

... could be worse, could be welsh :P

chris99
05-05-2008, 17:13
Yeah i wouldn't have even replied if you were :hidesbehi

biteme
05-05-2008, 17:14
lmfao

OlberJ
05-05-2008, 19:17
Could be wrong, does Nige have one in the Mk3.6?

I haven't heard of any N/A boxes going pop, the clutch would give up 1st.

I reckon the weight and price of a new one outweighs the supposed weakness of the box.

As for the LSD itself, dunno. Yet.

Nod
08-05-2008, 02:05
Has this actually been installed and tested yet? Very interesting stuff. Will it cope with V6 power levels?

Yes, we run the MK3 Torsen diff in the n/a box in that VM180 MRS 1MZ conversion we did. That car has been track day'd, raced and journo'd and hasn't missed a beat yet.

I have a plate type LSD going in mine, not sure who and where is came but other LSD options are out there.

0.75:1 Fifth gear set, the first to find this Mecca of cogs is going to be worshiped.:thumbsup:

Lyndon.

Paul Woods
08-05-2008, 07:43
lyndon i have reason to believe the sv25 model 4wd camry (only found in the US i think,but has S series trans) has a 0.73:1 fifth set that will fit an S54.... every other avenue i have looked at has drawn a blank,wiki says celicas are 0.73 but its bullshit as the EPC says its the same part number as the mr2 cogs.

Im going to bite the bullet soon and order them from toyota,it might cost a few hundred quid but it will be worth it if we actually find them

Nod
08-05-2008, 19:49
lyndon i have reason to believe the sv25 model 4wd camry (only found in the US i think,but has S series trans) has a 0.73:1 fifth set that will fit an S54.... every other avenue i have looked at has drawn a blank,wiki says celicas are 0.73 but its bullshit as the EPC says its the same part number as the mr2 cogs.

Im going to bite the bullet soon and order them from toyota,it might cost a few hundred quid but it will be worth it if we actually find them

I'd defo have a set off you if they are a goer.

Lyndon.

Paul Woods
08-05-2008, 19:57
no probs, ive tried to get a US breaker to send me the cogs but they are only interested in shipping a complete 4wd camry box.... twats!

Hang on,i thought i read somewhere that patrick had installed a longer 5th gear set in the VM180? im almost sure i read that on ROC? i must be wrong.

Anything i find out i will post here,im pretty confident the SV25 model camry ones will work.

Nod
10-05-2008, 01:35
Hang on,i thought i read somewhere that patrick had installed a longer 5th gear set in the VM180? im almost sure i read that on ROC? i must be wrong.


Patrick had installed? rotflmao

Tony had installed a 3.9:1 final drive from a UK NA onto the Torsen diff but that was about the size of it, no special 5th gear set.

I'll be second in the Q for this when (and if) it exisits, fingers crossed.

Lyndon.

Paul Woods
10-05-2008, 18:55
right well we can rule the camry 4wd out now as well,i thought they were an S series box but they are E series.... bollox!

The search continues.... its getting annoying cos bloody wikipedia keeps insisting theres loads of toyota S trans with 0.73 5th...which is utter crap because the EPC says otherwise.

Ive been right through the EPC for every model that had an S series trans and cant find a single one with a different part number to the mr2 S54 fifth.

I wont give up though!

Marksman
11-05-2008, 12:51
I wonder if the part numbers are sequential? Could you look up the part that is close then go up and down a few and maybe hit upon what you want?

O.S.

biteme
11-05-2008, 12:54
Toyota do work in some odd ways - but, then again, some brilliant ways.

It's deffo worth a shout though, Owenski.

Paul Woods
11-05-2008, 12:57
what im actually doing on the EPC is looking at the 5th driven gear... given if it has a different number of teeth on it so will the 5th gear too.... so the s54 (mk2na) box 5th DG number is 33428-32050 ,problem being i cant find ANY other S series box,thats S51,S52,S53 or S55 that has a different 5th DG part number to this....meaning they all must be 0.82:1

wiki says theres a s51 0.73 ,so do other forums,but im damned if i can find it on the EPC,all roads point back to the S54 part number which we know is 0.82

Its very frustrating,but id dearly like to know who entered the 0.73 info into wiki as i think thats where other forums have copied the info from,im begginning to think an S series 0.73 doesnt actually exist.

biteme
11-05-2008, 13:05
Does the EPG cover the US markets as well?

I bet they've got confused and seen a 0.73 from a E Series tranny?

OlberJ
11-05-2008, 15:05
Was just about to say that Johnny, what version EPC have you got Paul as there's at least 3, USDM, JdM and UKDM or European it might be. No idea why they'd be different but worth a try if you only got 1 of the above.

Does it have to be an S-series box or is it just a case of those ones will definitely fit?

Paul Woods
11-05-2008, 18:12
ive got the most up to date version of EPC that covers Euro and JDM,the USDM stuff isnt any different generally.

I think only the S series stuff works gear wise,i agree johnny,it must be the E series they got confused with.

Next question is,how hard would it be to adapt the E series 0.73 5th gear set into the S series box.... im going to have a look at that next as ive all but given up finding a 0.73 S series 5th gear set.

Marksman
11-05-2008, 19:18
OK another question for you. Do Toyota actually make gears? Or is it like electrical stuff where say multiple multiple car manufactures buy Lucas parts? Just wondering if there is a common standard that these cogs conform to so it wouldn't even have to be a Toyota part...

O.S.

Peebs
11-05-2008, 19:36
Hmmm, this thread sounds nice :P I been contemplating gearbox mods myself again just latley. I have no doubt the NA box would stick out 350-400BHP as it is for a LONG time - Toyota have a habit of over engineering lots of stuff, which is why they last so long :)

I personally, think that the NA box with an NA car is pretty damn good, okay sure, the V6 certainly would pull a lot more top end, but i dont wanna lose that ferocious acceleration. I wanna turbo the beast, but not much point UNTIL I get a box sorted for it first, otherwise i'll be in top in about 7 secs and me poor lil arm gonna have to move like a jack hammer, lol. a 6 speed box would be nice, but a much cheaper/easier option could be a slightly different geard final drive. Anyways I'll stop waffling now and say what i wanted to in the first place - I think the heat is getting to me, hehe. Oh and nice thought there Owen.

I saw some info on the net some time back about there being a 5th gear cluster that was fitted to Carlos Sainz rally celica which upped the top speed and was freely available from Toyota...how true that is I have no clue, cant really find much info on it at all now :(

Paul Woods
11-05-2008, 20:06
the final drive is easy to change peebs but i wouldnt want to lose that ferocious 1-4 pull,its just 5th i want to extend a little.

Nice idea owen,it could be theres another 5th gear set in a non toyo box we could use,theres certainly loads of 0.73 ratios out there,i think the best one to look at is the E series and try to modify those in somehow.

Garbe
11-05-2008, 20:44
Is there a chance the 0.73 from a different series box would drop in - I can't see toyota completely re-engineering the gears from one box to another if the design already works.

Paul Woods
12-05-2008, 07:20
thats the next step hasad,im looking at the E series gears soon and seeing if theres anything we can do.

Paul Woods
12-05-2008, 09:00
ok hold the press! i think ive found a possible contender,a 1990 camry diesel is 0.73:1 5th gear and it looks like it might be compatable with the S series gearbox.... the EPC says it has different part numbers to the S54 5th gear and driven gear which would point to it being a non 0.82 ratio anyway!

more digging to do but i think this is a possible.

biteme
12-05-2008, 09:54
Oooh that's interesting. Is it definately an S Series box?

loadswine
12-05-2008, 15:28
I really want a longer fifth, though having just done 2500 miles in Europe, I'd take a longer final drive, anything really! lol

biteme
12-05-2008, 15:37
Bigger wheels ;)

loadswine
12-05-2008, 15:41
Can't really go much bigger Johnny. A ratio change of some kind that'll work must be out there, just waiting......

biteme
12-05-2008, 18:21
Aye, there's got to be one somewhere.

I bet the cost of having one made for us would be horrific?

(oh btw Nigel, I met someone today who's OLDER than you! How mad is that? :P )

loadswine
12-05-2008, 20:31
We'll keep looking out for a solution to this one.

You met someone older than me! cheeky young pup!! lol

biteme
12-05-2008, 21:04
lol lol

are there any people here who could help with the making of the ratios? Tony, do you know anyone?

Paul Woods
13-05-2008, 08:57
the final drive is relatively easy to change nige,but i wouldnt want to lose that 1st to 4th!

loadswine
13-05-2008, 13:09
Yes, that rush is really cool, but I'd trade a bit of it for a more relaxed cruise for long distances. This country, no problem, its when you do 1000 miles in a day or two where you'd really feel the benefit.
Would the final drive being a touch longer really hammer the acceleration do you think?

biteme
13-05-2008, 13:22
Not massively ... But it'd give you a better top speed :)

loadswine
13-05-2008, 13:29
Hmmm, I'm seriously considering this one. I've just managed to secure a LSD for my box, so popping in a new final drive shouldn't cost me that much extra!

I hope... lol

biteme
13-05-2008, 13:42
Well, if you think about it. On the E series tranny, they raved about the ST165 FDRatio. 9% longer IIRC.

But it's not black and white. Say you had a 0-100 time of 10 seconds.

New FD might mean that it should be 10.9 seconds - but if you're in a powerband for longer, making less gear changes, it COULD be quicker. If you lost 0.5 seconds/change then you make one less, it's 10.4seconds straight away.

If you cruise at 80 leptons and thats 4000rpm, then all of a sudden you cruise at 3640rpm.

If you top speed at 7000rpm is 150, it's now 163 (providing you've got the grunt).

loadswine
13-05-2008, 13:47
This is looking like a sensible solution for me, keep going Johnny, you're convincing me. Must get my new rad first though.

Garbe
13-05-2008, 13:50
Which final drive fits the na box?
I think I'd trade outright acceleration in 1-4 for a quiter 5th. I think 1-2-3-4 could do with being slightly longer.

biteme
13-05-2008, 13:57
This is looking like a sensible solution for me, keep going Johnny, you're convincing me. Must get my new rad first though.

Different gearboxes for different situations?

If Toyota F1 have one, then we damn well should!!!

OlberJ
13-05-2008, 19:30
Garbe, it's the ST162 FD you want.

Garbe
13-05-2008, 19:40
Garbe, it's the ST162 FD you want.

Is that not for the turbo box?

biteme
13-05-2008, 19:42
nope, thats the ST165!

OlberJ
13-05-2008, 20:56
:thumbsup:

Peebs
13-05-2008, 23:03
IMO, all the gears are just ever so slightly too short, I'm pretty sure that changing the final drive would be quicker than just changing top. Is'nt this why manufactures went to 6 and even 7 gears ? ...and from 2 to 3 to 4 to five gears some years back now ? ...smaller drops in ratios means more overall accel co you use the engine power more efficiently - am I talking bollox, well i spose i would be if we were talking about "scoobies" :P

...but somthing in the back of my head niggles me that the v6 has the torque to cope with the larger gear jump - just a case of time before both setups are tried and tested i guess...

biteme
13-05-2008, 23:07
Need a E153 and an S54 head to head.

OlberJ
13-05-2008, 23:09
I reckon a longer FD S54 will probably do most people and suit a MK2 well.

Mk1 will make better use of that wild 1-4 and a longer 5th would be nice too.

loadswine
13-05-2008, 23:39
Either would suit a Mk3!

OlberJ
14-05-2008, 00:45
Mk3 i'd be tempted to keep the 1-4 and longer 5th unless you want it as a GT car.

You could just have 2 gearboxes and swap before you go on holiday :mrgreen:

loadswine
14-05-2008, 09:19
That's a bit of a luxury Olie, but an interesting thought.
Longer fifth gear is still my plan A, but if that doesn't work out, then a longer FD is always an option.

Garbe
14-05-2008, 10:14
IMO, all the gears are just ever so slightly too short, I'm pretty sure that changing the final drive would be quicker than just changing top.

...but somthing in the back of my head niggles me that the v6 has the torque to cope with the larger gear jump - just a case of time before both setups are tried and tested i guess...

Thats what i'm thinking, the gears are slightly too short for the V6.

OlberJ
14-05-2008, 19:39
Gaydo Mk2 owners, grow some V6 howlin balls :P

Garbe
15-05-2008, 14:17
Ollie - mines an every day car and I don't hoon around constantly. I drive it in me pipe n slippers

OlberJ
15-05-2008, 19:02
Aye, for a GT style car a longer FD would be right. It's got the torque for it.

In my eyes the V6 in a Mk2 makes it the GT car so it'd make sense.

It'll just be a case of replacing the crown wheel and pinion in the box so should work fine.

oddball
07-06-2008, 19:29
A couple of quick questions about the use of the mk3 lsd before I end up spending too much money,
First, Paul, did you manage to remove to bearings from the mk2 diff undamaged or did you just replace them, and if you removed them, whats the trick to it? i went to toyota to find out about replacements and was quoted £105 inc vat for the pair (not impressed!).

Secondly, if you do replace the bearings, do you also have to replace the shells in the gearbox casing that the bearings run in?

And last but not least, are the plastic gears for the speedo the same for the mk2 and mk3, or does this need swapping too (not a problem to do so, but interested to know).

I know even less about gearboxes than i do about engines and want to try and avoid any ( more ) costly mistakes.
Have started to think that maybe I should have taken the car to woodsport in the first place, but then what would I have learnt? Its just the learning process is starting to have an impact on my wallet!lol and my daily driver is in many pieces.

Paul Woods
08-06-2008, 08:16
hi mate,we managed to pull the old mk2 side bearings off the old diff in the end,i had to make a puller and it took a while getting them off but we managed.If you renewed the bearings you could probably get away without renewing the shells in the casing.

You dont have to pay toyota prices you know,a bearing is a bearing,it would be pretty easy to match that bearing up and get one for £20 or so,thats what we were going to do if we couldnt get the old ones off.

The speedo driven gear is exactly the same so doesnt need swapping


Have started to think that maybe I should have taken the car to woodsport in the first place

Naa,think of the fun you would have missed out on :)

oddball
08-06-2008, 12:59
Thanks paul, will see what i can do, did not fancy paying toyota's prices if i could not get the bearings off, will make more inquiry's!
And yeah, at times it has been great fun, although there have been times the air turns blue and I become pretty unapproachable! But I know its gonna be worth it in the end.

ST-Autosport
21-07-2009, 18:13
coming back to the MK3 lsd swap into the MK2 NA box

am i right in saying that if the stock mk3 lsd fits the mk2 box, wich you proved it does

that an upgrade mk3 lsd like trd or cusco (say a 1.5way or 2way diff) also fits the mk2 na box?

i have no experience with upgraded diffs in MR2's, how would this drive compared to stock mk3 lsd?

Paul Woods
21-07-2009, 19:05
You are correct, any upgraded LSD for the mk3 will install into a mk2 NA.

ST-Autosport
21-07-2009, 19:31
thank you very much

knightrous
20-08-2009, 04:11
http://trdparts.jp/english/parts_lsd_mechanical.html
http://www.kaazusa.com/partinfo_japan.html

TRD & KAAZ both have the SW20-NA and ZZW30 listed with the same LSD part numbers. The interesting part is they have AW11-SC has the same LSD part number as the SW20-T.

OlberJ
20-08-2009, 22:23
Yes, i believe there is some similarity between the SC gearbox and a rev1 Mk2 tubby box.

Stefan-gte
07-11-2009, 12:58
Bump up this old thread :P

So if i'm right this diff will fit my 3S-GE Gearbox?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-TRD-Torsen-Helical-LSD-MR-2-Celica-MR-S-ZZT-SW20_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem518b21d589QQitemZ3 50226601353QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcc essories

Paul Woods
07-11-2009, 14:39
Yep that will fit

aussiemr2
10-11-2009, 15:30
Paul is there a reliable way of testing for LSD in a gearbox that is not in a car
Or do we need to pull open the diff casing?
Reason I ask is a rev3 box has come up for sale close to me and the guy is sure it came from Japan already with LSD fitted, now we know its not an option on N/A's but it would not be unusual for someone to have fitted it

Paul Woods
10-11-2009, 17:55
There is no foolproof way unless you open the box up, most of these LSD's are torsen ones, so they will indicate a non-lsd diff type with any test.

Diesel Meister
14-11-2009, 23:43
Do I need to start a another thread to ask which FD would best suit a 2GR (presumably hooked through an E153?) in a Mk1a? I'm thinking 3.9 would be the best compromise for a road car, although the 4.2 FD would still be usable :)

biteme
15-11-2009, 20:38
The 3.933 from the ST165 will take you 9% increase in gearing IIRC. It's a good mod to allow the engine to sing!

Diesel Meister
16-11-2009, 10:50
Cool - cheers. I don't need masses of top end or fuel economy but equally I think sensible spacing will enhance the driving experience.

knightrous
16-12-2009, 23:50
Question about the MK3 LSD, what type of torsen is it?
Is it the parallel gear type?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/91.jpg

Or the cross helical type?
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2009/12/2.gif

OlberJ
17-12-2009, 00:27
Parallel i think from what you can see through the holes in the side of the diff.

Paul Woods
17-12-2009, 07:44
Definately parallel.

knightrous
17-12-2009, 08:52
Thanks Paul & OlberJ

Torero
14-02-2012, 16:37
Picking up on this old but very useful thread - I have possibly got hold of a MK3 gearbox,which has the Torsen diff. How easy are these to fit into a Rev 5 '98 n/a box. I have used the search search button but can't find anything. Is there is a guide or 'how to' in the TB vaults I would appreciate a pointer to it if there is.

I shall be doing the 5th gear mod at the same time, so can use any shortcuts/time that happen as a result.savings.

Paul Woods
14-02-2012, 19:13
John as far as i know i'm the only one who routinely fits these and has done any level of documentation, but i don't think i've ever done an exact "how to" guide.

One thing's for sure, they are a pretty specialist job to fit, i have one to do later this week and i will take step by step pics of everything and do a guide covering the whole aspect of it. It will be the weekend before i can put that together though mate.

Adam W
14-02-2012, 19:17
Do you have to set preload and mess about with crush washers and things Paul? That was what put me off doing the diff in my last car (quaife ATB into a Ford English axle), I sent that out to be done.

Paul Woods
14-02-2012, 19:37
No there's no need to mess with that, technically speaking yes the preload should always be adjusted, but i have found as long as you use the original bearings the preload remains exactly the same. The Mk3 diff is exactly the same length shoulder to shoulder as the open Mk2 diff, so nothing changes when you swap the diffs over.

The job does however require specialist tools, i made mine because there was no solution that i could buy new, Toyota wouldn't sell me the SST either.

I'm finding more people these days are sending me gearboxes to operate on because of the pitfalls involved, it's far from easy!

hmmmmm
14-02-2012, 19:38
and i will take step by step pics of everything and do a guide covering the whole aspect of it.

Keeping up the TB spirit! I salute you sir! :beer:

Torero
14-02-2012, 20:50
The job does however require specialist tools, i made mine because there was no solution that i could buy new, Toyota wouldn't sell me the SST either.

I'm finding more people these days are sending me gearboxes to operate on because of the pitfalls involved, it's far from easy!

:thumbsup:Thanks Paul, I knew you'd set the record straight. It's not so much a case of being a noob, I just don't have the facilities to do this, I need some space and cutting /welding equipment to make the tools. I'd love to have a go but needing the right tools may just throw me. So I have 3 options:

1] Wait for Paul's diff conversion guide and have a go.
2] Just do the 5th Gear extension, myself.
3] Ship the MK3 gearbox and replacement gearbox to Woodsport to get the job done along with the 5th.

Let's check the guide first and I'll decide later, that way I may be able to remove the diff and save some pennies on shipping.

Like Hmmm said, Good on you Paul :eusa_clap:, I could easily have cocked this up big time if I didn't have your advice. Thanks Buddy.

Paul Woods
14-02-2012, 21:27
Hey no probs, hopefully the guide doesn't make it look too easy, guides have a habit of doing that, I cannot stress enough how tricky this can be to do. I'd rather it was an eye opener and prevented someone trashing a good box, but on the other hand it could be a useful guide for the more experienced builder.

I will also do a mk3 diff removal guide, I have a shortcut that gets the diff out in 3 minutes, no shit!

Torero
14-02-2012, 21:38
I will also do a mk3 diff removal guide, I have a shortcut that gets the diff out in 3 minutes, no shit!Brilliant, this would be a help on it's own Paul, a gearbox full of HobNobs will be on it's way to you if I get it done.

cdwood2010
14-02-2012, 22:56
John,

Not sure what your plans are but you are welcome to bench the gearboxes here if you want somewhere to work on them. Just let me know.

I could probably come and pick them up too if you need.

I'm also happy to watch / HF your coat!

Chris.

Torero
14-02-2012, 23:15
John,

Not sure what your plans are but you are welcome to bench the gearboxes here if you want somewhere to work on them. Just let me know.

I could probably come and pick them up too if you need.
Chris.

Cheers, thanks a bunch Chris :thumbsup: this does make life easier.

My intention was to build the gearbox with the lead-in time I have so it would speed up the build as I really would like the 5th Gear extension, but now I can give it a shot at your place.

If I can pick up the MK3 gearbox this weekend and get the diff out of it, I shouldn't have too much trouble bringing the replacement rev 5 gearbox with me but lets see how it goes.

Resolve
23-02-2012, 13:29
Hi Paul,

Did you by any chance made some pictures when swapping that diff?
Maby i could spot somthing on those pics wich i did diffrent while reassembling my box.

Paul Woods
27-02-2012, 21:32
Ok bear with me chaps, this is the definitive Mk3 LSD into S54 install guide, i'm going to have to bite this sucker off in chunks because it's a little more indepth than i was planning, there's 50 pics alone just stripping the box down and fitting the LSD without the rebuild!

Hang on to your hats....

Start with one S54 box, it doesn't matter which revision, but if you're using a Rev1 and want to also fit the extended 5th gear mod i discovered you will need a rev2- box or rev2- synchro parts, but for now this guide concentrates on the Mk3 LSD fitment.

Be aware this requires specialist tools, most of which i made myself specifically to do this job, you will also require jumbo coconut balls as many try this and fail resulting in a junk gearbox, you have been warned! With that out of the way hopefully this serves as a good guide for the more experienced among you.

Start by removing the two bolts circled below and remove the selector arm....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/1.jpg

Now remove the 12mm nut and knock the clevis pin out, then remove the selector fork, how seized this is depends, some pull off by hand, others require heat...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/2.jpg

Here is the fork removed...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/3.jpg

Using a big fuck off spanner (can't remember its actual size, just the BFOS) undo the selector housing end cap...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/5.jpg

Make sure the box is in neutral, remove the selector detent...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/6.jpg

Slide the selector assembly out...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/7.jpg

Tip the gearbox on end and inside the bellhousing there are two 12mm bolts, remove them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/8.jpg

With the gearbox back on its base remove the eight 12mm bolts from the 5th gear casing...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/9.jpg

With the casing off, remove the circlip on top of the synchro hub (sorry forgot to take pic!, but it's obvious) , remove the 12mm bolt from the selector fork and use a puller to pull the 5th gear synchro hub assembly off, i made this one which consists of 3 bolts that screw into the hub and a captive centre bolt to press against the shaft...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/10.jpg

Close up of the tool... (wish i had a pic of Phil right now)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/11.jpg

With the 5th gear synchro hub off the 5th gear lifts off by hand...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/12.jpg

Now remove the bearing, it splits in two halves...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/13.jpg

Now remove the spacer ring...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/14.jpg

Here it is removed....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/15.jpg

I use a windy gun for this part, never found anything else that works, just remember the nut is left hand thread...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/16.jpg

With the nut off you need a puller to remove 5th driven gear....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/17.jpg

With both 5 gears off you need to remove the base plate, 5 bolts hold this down...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/18.jpg

Plate removed...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/19.jpg

There are two circlips on each shaft, remove them...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/20.jpg

Now remove the reverse idler securing bolt on the side of the gearbox...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/21.jpg

Now remove all of the casing bolts onto the bellhousing, there's lots of them, how's that for technical.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/22.jpg

Now tap the casing upward with a chisel or punch in several places around the casing, once it comes off the dowels it will move easily....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/23.jpg

Now we're in! oooh scary coggy things....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/23b.jpg

Remove the reverse idler cog and shaft...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/24.jpg

Flick book style, shoulda took more pics, nailed them all together and made a movie...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/25.jpg

Remove this bolt on the reverse selector....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/26.jpg

Now a tricky bit, lift the 5th/reverse selector fork upward, this will let the reverse arm clear the second bolt you need to remove...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/27.jpg

Here's a shortcut to getting the diff out, no need to dismantle the entire selector assembly, just lever the whole gearset up about 20mm and the diff will slide out...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/28.jpg

With the diff out we need to safely remove the two bearings for reuse, you can fit new bearings at this point and skip this stage, but you will need to adjust the preload shims in the casing, which requires even more specialist tools and is a pain, trust me, you really want to reuse these!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/29.jpg

Important tip, these bearings are sided, do not fuck this up! If you mix them up and they go back on the wrong side (50/50 chance!) then you're screwed.

Now excuse me while i'm very unprofessional for a bit, but i had to make the tool that removed these bearings, i'm sure Toyotas SST is for sale somewhere but i couldn't find it, they probably want a gazillion pounds for it anyway. So my tool works (so Becky says) but i have no option but to cut off the old speedo cog to get my puller behind it. Answers on a postcard if you find a better way but i cannot. This cog will need to be renewed, it's about £25. DO NOT use the Mk3 speedo cog, you will end up with your clocks reading KMH! Only the grey S54 cog must be used.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/30.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/31.jpg

With the speedo cog off there is now room for the puller to sit behind the bearing...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/32.jpg

I made a spigot that sits inside the diff for pulling against...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/33.jpg

Here is my hydraulic puller with custom made arms in place...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/34.jpg

And i have a special C clamp that stops it springing off...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/35.jpg

Same proceedure on the other bearing...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/37.jpg

The bearings removed, keep these in order! They do not swap and are handed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/38.jpg

Now remove the S54 crownwheel, 8 bolts and a tap with a hammer sees that off....we need to fit that onto the Mk3 diff.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/39.jpg

Crownwheel removed, look it's almost 3D!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/40.jpg

Remove the Mk3 bearings and speedo cog, be as rough as you like, you don't need them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/42.jpg

Fit the new Mk2 speedo cog first...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/43.jpg

Then tap the Mk2 bearing into place...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/44.jpg

You won't get it all the way home, so use an old bearing race to squeeze it home in the vice, be careful not to catch the outer cage.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/45.jpg

Same on the other end....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/46.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/47.jpg

With the bearings fitted you can install the Mk2 crownwheel...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/48.jpg

The new diff is now ready to install, prize the gearset up as before and slide the new diff into the box...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/49.jpg

That's all for now, i will continue this write up tomorrow when i assemble the rest of the gearbox, nighty night.

Part two...

With the LSD installed it's time to rebuild the box, refit the reverse gear idler assembly, it's the same as removal except in reverse, boom tish i'm here all week...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/50.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/51.jpg

Now an important bit, you must align the reverse idler gear with the pointy bit on the casing...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/52.jpg

This is so the bolt hole aligns with the hole in the casing.

Now clean the casing surface, and use a solvent or degreaser to get rid of any residue...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/53.jpg

Do the same thing with the other side of the casing...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/54.jpg

Now apply sealant to the casing, i use Sikaflex, but Tigerseal or any other sealant will do.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/55.jpg

Plop the casing back on, it should tap home very easily, if you need to use excessive force you've done something wrong...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/56.jpg

Immediately check for reverse idler alignment...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/57.jpg

I was off by half a hole, bring it into line with a screwdriver...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/58.jpg

Insert the bolt...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/59.jpg

Block the diff hole, it's not nice having something fall in there, you're back to square one and it will all need to come apart again, trust me i know! Also refit all of the casing bolts and tighten evenly.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/60.jpg

Clean the top casing surface, again use a solvent.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/62.jpg

Screw the nut on the driven shaft by a few turns and use that to lever the shaft up, this will allow you to fit the circlip...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/63.jpg

With both circlips fitted refit the top plate, at no point allow the selector shaft sticking up to rotate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/64.jpg

Put the spacer ring back on the input shaft...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/65.jpg

A reminder of the driven gear part number for the extended mod...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/66.jpg

Tap the gear home, an old socket and hammer, nothing technical...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/67.jpg

A reminder of the 5th gear part number...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/68.jpg

Apply grease to the bearing and place it on the shaft, the grease holds the bearing nothing more...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/69.jpg

Take the synchro hub assembly and place it on the cog, four holes align with four pegs...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/70.jpg

This is how the 5th gear assembly must be installed, as one unit, if you try to fit the gear first then the hub the lower spring clip will fall out, not good.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/paddy1970/Woodsport 5/71.jpg

cdwood2010
27-02-2012, 22:15
Holy crap, that is awesome Paul, thanks for taking the time to do that!

It makes me want to take my gearbox back out and get it in bits!

:)

Chris.

adamh
27-02-2012, 23:28
brillo pads mate. what box does the 2gr swap in the mk3 use?

snowtigger
27-02-2012, 23:48
That's easy only the turbo box can handle the 2gr engine, I think it would destroy the na box quite quickly.

hmmmmm
28-02-2012, 00:22
Sweet! Nice write up paul, i might have to start looking for a broken down mk3 :smile:

https://whyweprotest.net/asset-proxy/ff17b5da417a3ba6fc3a9eea30c4eb610df02668/687474703a2f2f7777772e6561726c73746565732e636f6d2f 73686f702f636174616c6f672f696d616765732f2f3630302f 3630305f4570696357696e2e6a7067/http://www.earlstees.com/shop/catalog/images//600/600_EpicWin.jpg

Resolve
28-02-2012, 08:39
Yay tanks paul! I'm realy looking forward to part 2 :praise2:

I destroyed the old bearings yesterday and gonna fit new bearings on my new LSD. To get the preload back in spec i'le probally have to reshim the bearings.

The stock toyota torque meter adaptor clamps over the bar wich runs trough the middle of the diff, but with an LSD that bar's gone. So i'le probally need a stub axle or some kind of clamp to make an adaptor for the torque meter so i can measure the actual preload.
Oh and i need a quite precice torque meter, lets search ebay :P

The bearing numbers wich came from my diff yesterday where:

90366-40023 LH bearing: Nachi 40KB681 A1
90366-40016 RH bearing: HC Koyo TRA 080702

Paul Woods
28-02-2012, 20:45
Sorry folks i just typed out and linked another 45 pics for part two of the article, hit submit and IE crashed on me! I lost the effing lot!, that just took me an hour to do.

I'm too tired tonight to go through that again, i'll try again tomorrow.

cdwood2010
28-02-2012, 20:57
Omg.

Do it in a word document, paste it in.

Although doesn't Tb autosave?

C.

Paul Woods
28-02-2012, 21:32
I was editing my original post so the article was complete, IE crashed and I lost all my work, deepest joy.

MMaddict
28-02-2012, 22:06
Yay tanks paul! I'm realy looking forward to part 2 :praise2:

I destroyed the old bearings yesterday and gonna fit new bearings on my new LSD. To get the preload back in spec i'le probally have to reshim the bearings.

The stock toyota torque meter adaptor clamps over the bar wich runs trough the middle of the diff, but with an LSD that bar's gone. So i'le probally need a stub axle or some kind of clamp to make an adaptor for the torque meter so i can measure the actual preload.
Oh and i need a quite precice torque meter, lets search ebay :P

The bearing numbers wich came from my diff yesterday where:

90366-40023 LH bearing: Nachi 40KB681 A1
90366-40016 RH bearing: HC Koyo TRA 080702

I bought a 1/2" mannesman greenline with 10 years warranty for 60E the otherday. goes up to 210NM. What torque do you need? for 80E you can get one from conrad.nl with a certificate for +/- 3% deviation. conrad.nl: Bestnr.: 824343 - 89


P.S.> Dont they have a good one at your work?

Resolve
28-02-2012, 22:23
I bought a 1/2" mannesman greenline with 10 years warranty for 60E the otherday. goes up to 210NM. What torque do you need? for 80E you can get one from conrad.nl with a certificate for +/- 3% deviation. conrad.nl: Bestnr.: 824343 - 89


P.S.> Dont they have a good one at your work?


Wel...... The preload is measured by the force requierd to make the diff spin. And it should start to spin when applying between 0.8 and 1.6 Nm.
So a normal torque wrench is useless for this, i'le realy need a very sensitive indicating torque meter.

I'd like go go a bit nearer to to the 0.8 Nm becouse the box wil get (a lot?) hotter with the V6 then it did with the 3S. So internals will expand more becouse of the heat and bearing clearances will become tighter. At least if i'm argue this one straight.


Paul, shit happens. Realy looking forward to your 2nd try :e045:

MMaddict
29-02-2012, 00:39
conrad has them starting @ 0.1NM

So you just gotta pick out the good range...

aussiemr2
29-02-2012, 00:45
What i did was use the input shaft , it slides straight into the diff, same spline count
Attached a torque wrench that read from 0.1 to other end
You should be setting preload with the gearbox internals removed so this makes it easy to use the input shaft

Paul Woods
29-02-2012, 08:27
Ok it won't let me add this to the rest of the article, like my nob it's just too long, so here it is...

Now place the assembly onto the input shaft taking care to align the gear with the driven gear, keep the underside of the gear supported.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/373.jpg

Now i made a special press for this job, it bolts to the casing and gently presses down on the 5th assembly to install it without shocking the spring clip out, you can tap the assembly home with a hammer/socket but it needs the gear constantly levered hard and it has a fair chance of going wrong on you, i've seen more of these gearboxes messed up at this stage than any other, if that lower spring clip comes out you won't know about it until you try to engage 5th, which it will, but it won't come back out.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/374.jpg

I recommend making a similar press for the job, it takes a bit of effort but having a bespoke tool for the job makes it so much easier...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/375.jpg

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/376.jpg

With the assembly home, fit the nut to the driven gear (reverse thread), the bolt in the selector fork and the top circlip on the input shaft...
http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/377.jpg

Use a chisel or punch to indent the locktab on the nut...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/378.jpg

Now look inside the selector housing, check all of the selector forks are in alignment, if they aren't then align them with a screwdriver...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/379.jpg

Inside the bellhousing refit the two casing bolts...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/380.jpg

Take the selector shaft and make sure it's prongs are all aligned...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/381.jpg

Slide it back into the housing, if it won't go, take it back out and check alignment of both forks and prongs.

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/382.jpg

Screw the endcap back on....

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/383.jpg

Tighten using the BFOS (it's actually 36mm but i prefer BFOS)

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/384.jpg

Refit the selector detent...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/385.jpg

Fit the rubber gaitor...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/386.jpg

Fit the fork...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/387.jpg

Clean the top casing surface...

http://www.twobrutal.co.uk/forum/images/recovered/2012/02/388.jpg

Apply sealant and bolt it down, job done.

Now just before you seal the end casing down it's a good idea to check the box for all gear operation...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DZOLwh2z1I


And now for your entertainment, removing a diff from a Toyota gearbox in 2 minutes, this is the same for a Mk2 or Mk3 box, there is no need to go through a lengthy dismantling of the box, just take the two bellhousing bolts out (3 on Mk3), remove the reverse idler bolt, undo all of the casing bolts, prize or hammer the casing apart, undo the two reverse idler bolts and this will allow the casing to split enough to take the diff out, only do it this way if you're throwing the rest of the gearbox away...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpGHyqcRKiw

Enjoy!

Paul Woods
29-02-2012, 08:31
My article is split in two chaps, the original has been updated and the second part is above.

racerADS
02-03-2012, 11:34
I am the lucky owner of the pictured gearbox, can't wait to get it bolted onto the V6 and put that power on the road!

Big thank you Paul for your excellent work as usual. Always a pleasure to chat with you. See you at Jae :)

snowtigger
02-03-2012, 12:33
You coming to the peak district run as its been rescheduled to the 25th ?
Will it be up and running by then ?

racerADS
02-03-2012, 15:20
No chance Tiggs. JAE is the target, need to put the engine back together first ;) The talk of V6 run outs is spurring me on though.

cdwood2010
02-03-2012, 22:35
No chance Tiggs. JAE is the target, need to put the engine back together first ;) The talk of V6 run outs is spurring me on though.

Let me know if you need a hand with anything!

C.

racerADS
03-03-2012, 08:39
Cheers Buddy, will do :)